SMPTE Timecode for DLSRs and audio recorders w/o timecode

[David Kellermann]

My problem isn't RED specific, but I hope that it's ok to post it here.

I was looking to get SMPTE timecode for an upcoming low budget short. Since I won't be able to rent appropriate equipment, I was looking for alternatives. Would following setup work? Has someone tried it?

iPad or cheap eBay SMPTE LTC timecode generator gives out signal

Transmitter sends wireless signal from generator (would maybe an audio transmitter work? Timecode transmitter / receiver aren't probably in the budget)

iPad with Movie Slate app and Timecode Sync plugin gets signal via audio or timecode receiver

DSLR gets signal via audio or timecode receiver and saves it as mono audio track

Audio recorder gets signal via audio or timecode receiver and saves it as mono audio track

Interpret the audio as timecode in FCP/Avid/Premiere

Sync all to timecode

Kinda sounds to good to be true... any thoughts?

 

[Shane Betts]

Or just record without timecode and sync to slates in post. Worked for years and years on film.

 

[Björn Benckert]

My advice. Syncronize all machinery pre shoot. In other words set the internal clocks as good as you can then. When you have recored it all you only have to go by creation date/time. And or use fcp plugin for sync to scratch track which works superb.

 

[David Kellermann]

@Shane: Of course it works, but it still takes quite some time to sync all the footage, especially when using multiple cameras.

@Björn: Using the same time of day is what I used on the last projects, but it's not 100% precise. You still have to manually sync the files (it's normally just a few seconds off, but still...). Which plugin do you use to sync?

 

[ERIC PECK]

Magic Lantern has support for timecode input on the 5d, has never tried it myself but there is documentation and videos about it on their website.

http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Lantern_Firmware_Wiki

Using PluralEyes to sync all the cameras based on their reference audio might also work.

 

[David Kellermann]

Plural Eyes is a great product, but doesn't always work. So I don't want to depend on it.

AFAIK Magic Lantern timecode brings along a lot of problems with other ML features. And since I'm going to use hacked GH2 it's not an option either.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Any audio device without timecode is going to drift, even digital. If you don't believe me, take two identical iPods, sit them on a table, and have them play back the same song. In one minute, they're going to be audibly out of sync. This is what happens when you have recorders (or players) with imprecise internal clock crystals. The whole point of timecode is ensuring accurate, reproducable speed and syncing different devices together without fear of drift.

My suggestion is that you record a reference audio track to camera, use a separate audio recorder with timecode, and a timecode slate slaved to the audio recorder. Clap the sticks at the start of every take; use the sticks to sync everything up in editing. A good assistant editor can easily do 50 takes an hour. Even a long, long day is not going to have more than 250 takes (unless you're shooting on many simultaneous cameras). PluralEyes is not perfect, but I think it's about 80% reliable; the other shots will need some help, but it's pretty trivial to do.

 

[David Kellermann]

Thank you Marc for your suggestions. But as I wrote in the thread topic: I want to find a way to use timecode for devices WITHOUT timecode. We're going to use an R44 which doesn't support timecode, so we can't slave a timecode slate to it.

And yes, of course the devices will drift. But I don't think that they will drift that much (I tried your example, and it was impossible to hear any drifting). The point of my setup is that there's one more or less reliable master clock (iPad / cheap timecode generator) which sends the timecode to all devices. If the master clock drifts... who cares? Because all of the other devices will have the same "wrong" timecode.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Thank you Marc for your suggestions. But as I wrote in the thread topic: I want to find a way to use timecode for devices WITHOUT timecode. We're going to use an R44 which doesn't support timecode, so we can't slave a timecode slate to it.

Then it's going to drift. Don't shoot long takes. Be prepared to jig and jog a lot once you pull the footage into your editing system, and keep an eagle eye on sync. Shoot a 5-minute workflow test, do a clap at the head and a clap at the tail, and see for yourself if it stays in precise sync.

Sometimes, you gotta use a hammer to pound in a nail. You can use a wrench if you insist, but it's often a lot better to use the right tool for the job.

 

[David Kellermann]

Since nobody can say for sure if it will work or not, I'll just invest the money and see how it goes. I'll post a review in the next weeks.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Note that there are really cheap timecode-capable recorders out there, like the Fostex FR-2. What specific audio recorder are you planning to use? And would it be possible to just rent one for the shoot? Some are very affordable, like $50 a day.

Whatever you do, just be sure to do a workflow test prior to the shoot. If it'll stay in sync for a minute or two, it'll be close enough for jazz. I know of a student film that used a non-timecode Minidisc deck about ten years ago, and it was fine for short takes.

 

[David Kellermann]

We're using an Edirol R-44 (already available).

Trust me, I wouldn't dare shooting without doing some prior testing.

 

[James Arnold]

This system may work a treat David. I can't help but agree with Marc though and think that you are making life deliberately hard on yourself.

It's difficult to cast doubt on indy shoots when one isn't aware of the circumstances surrounding the budget - and at the end of the day the content is what matters. HOWEVER I find it odd that you are persisting with using an audio recorder that lacks the ability to accurately generate it's own timecode. Can you really not borrow, beg or steal a 744T or similar? I find that hard to believe. This also makes me worry about the credentials and abilities of your sound recordist. Is he not bothered by this? I would be!

Your proposed system relies upon sending your TC as an audio signal to various devices using wireless. Not does this use up valuable wireless mics as senders (and create additional stuff for the sound department to have to deal with on set outside of getting you beautiful audio) but it may require you to use attenuated cables at the receiver end, particularly on the DSLR, to bring the signal level down and reduce the possibility of bleed through to actual audio tracks.

Your reluctance to use a standard 'dumb' slate can be understood from the point of view of a swift edit, but I'm not sure that in the long run you will not have to fiddle about with sync quite a bit anyway. Sometimes simple is best.

The ideal scenario? Find a local soundy willing to help you out for free (they do exist!) and see what he suggests.

James