Skip every second lens and get monstro instead...

[Björn Benckert]

I just did this little chart to explain to a DP friend of mine why we could do without the in between lenses when using monstro. Sure going 8k all the time is great but for a lot of stuff it´s not really needed and if you are happy with monstro 6k ( I would say most should be, there is simply no other camera out there that beats monstro 6k if you ask me, except for monstro 7k and 8k) Then you can freely window in on the sensor and to achieve the looks of different focal lengths.

So this list is according to my canon FD set where I only took FOV into account, sure you could fiddle with the Fstop to get even closer but normally people dont tend to stay on a given DOF when swinging lenses any way but instead adapt to the shot at hand. So to me the relevant part is the Field of view change. And having 8k, 7k and 6k gives a pretty fat line up out of these 8 lenses... As if you start to shoot all three you get 24 lenses out of these 8. As when mastering for UHD and below most can live with the difference in quality, and a sensor crop really gives a pretty good match in terms of colors and lens match, which changing lenses does not always do as well.

This set is about to get rehoused and remounted 7 FD´s and then a 180mm Nikkor BNCR all fully covering VV. When picking the focal lengths I had this theory in mind, trying to make it so that I got the best focal lenghts and also have them as wide appart so they dont overlap in FOV when going 8k to 6k. The 14mm covers up to 17.5mm then the 24mm goes up to 29mm and the 35mm goes up to 43mm and so on.

The simple way to calculate would be to take your 8k focal length x 1.25.


So just as food for though, I made this list with https://www.pointsinfocus.com/tools/depth-of-field-and-equivalent-lens-calculator/



CROPPING DOWN by Björn Benckert, on Flickr

 

[Eric Lange]

@Björn

That looks superb!!!

I'll go through that with a fine tooth comb,

The premise of the argument is a brilliant thought... Like Hey I could just buy one or two Thalias cuz the price difference between Mostro VV versus Helium make it so (assuming I have right end of stick ... :willy_nilly: ) and need half the number of lenses? OR (as I think 6K monsto (as a format) is in principal superb for a LOT of applications... So I'm thinking / wondering about Monstro 6K too (making a comeback in different ways)...

 

[Eric Lange]

@Björn

Sorry for being tech-traded... I can't find a way to read the fine pint of the data and the curves etc... Even on flikr with a magnifying tool and literal magnifying glass on screen... (today I'm working from a lap top + smart phone).

Do you by chance have a pdf version that could be linked to?

Please and thank you!

Looks very good/useful/important indeed.

Will check out the on-line app too.

Ta.

Eric

_____________________________________________________________________________

"This set is about to get rehoused and remounted 7 FD´s" Who you getting to do that BTW sounds cool/very interesting and useful.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Haha good luck explaining that to production or a DP. It would be hilarious to watch...;-)

 

[Les Hillis]

I guess cropping into the 8K Helium could work too -









These crops of the 40mm frame are exact matches to the FOV given by the 58, 75 and 90mm lenses I was comparing them to, when shot at the same 10ft distance, although the crops don't visually match the actual lenses exactly due to lens distortions.

I just picked those focal lengths because I had them at hand. All the frames were resized to 4096x2160.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Haha good luck explaining that to production or a DP. It would be hilarious to watch...;-)

I was working with Anthony Dod Mantel on a commercial back in the hd / dragon days. He did not care to call for a longer lens and simply swiped between 4k and 6k like a tourist using digital zoom on an Iphone on pure convinience. So some pretty high rated DPs are allready on the train.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I guess cropping into the 8K Helium could work too -









These crops of the 40mm frame are exact matches to the FOV given by the 58, 75 and 90mm lenses I was comparing them to, when shot at the same 10ft distance, although the crops don't visually match the actual lenses exactly due to lens distortions.

I just picked those focal lengths because I had them at hand. All the frames were resized to 4096x2160.

A good example where this approach works just fine. Sure when light becomes more extreme and focus is shallow that will also be enhanced by the same procentage. But when well exposed and tack sharp monstro has quite a bit of resolution to spare. Digital zoom/sensor crop is one way of using it.

Then also if bit rate is constant or even raised when sensor size is lowered the noise isue can be some what counter balanced.


will find larger picture of that lens data sheet. Think flikr linked to a smaller file than i actually uploaded.

 

[Björn Benckert]

url=https://flic.kr/p/GyLuBs]

[/url]CROPPING DOWN by Björn Benckert, on Flickr

Still tiny text but readable.

 

[Uros Zuraj]

and editor will kill you for all the different files

 

[Björn Benckert]

and editor will kill you for all the different files

He would not even notice he would be editing 2k proxy proreslt files all the way, and also in resolve you dont feel a thing when relinking to r3d’s as long as you stick to the same aspect ratio, in this case FF.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

I approve. This makes a lot of sense. Perhaps it's more useful in cinema than photography, because cinema has well defined standards for release.

But, here's a counterpoint: instead of skipping every other prime, why not use a zoom? The narrower aperture is more than compensated by the increased sensitivity.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I approve. This makes a lot of sense. Perhaps it's more useful in cinema than photography, because cinema has well defined standards for release.

But, here's a counterpoint: instead of skipping every other prime, why not use a zoom? The narrower aperture is more than compensated by the increased sensitivity.

You need some big fast zooms to do so.

 

[Les Hillis]

So, I guess without being able to set custom resolutions you'd have to use approximate (slightly wider) cropped resolutions in-camera with custom frame-guides set up per lens/resolution combination, to enable accurate framing of the subject while still taking advantage of the lower compression that cropping in enables (could be as low as RC2:1).

Edit - Wondering now if there's a point at which changing to another lens becomes a better/more viable option than shooting with less lenses for a calculated crop later on.

 

[Ryan Sauve]

I've been doing this with my 8K Helium to cut between medium and CU shots on corporate shoots where subjects are taking directly to camera with a teleprompter setup in front of the lens. When you got someone talking for 8 hours, you're not going to want to shoot it all a second time with a longer lens if exhibition is on YouTube where 1080p will do. One of the biggest selling points to my corporate clients.

 

[Björn Benckert]

So, I guess without being able to set custom resolutions you'd have to use approximate (slightly wider) cropped resolutions in-camera with custom frame-guides set up per lens/resolution combination, to enable accurate framing of the subject while still taking advantage of the lower compression that cropping in enables (could be as low as RC2:1).

Edit - Wondering now if there's a point at which changing to another lens becomes a better/more viable option than shooting with less lenses for a calculated crop later on.

You dont need use a ”calculated” crop you simply swap to another res in camera.

Not saying this gives best possible quality but if delivering at a lowe res and you are good in exposure and sharpnes very few will notice the the step down to 6k from 8k on some sots in an edit. Like using the digital zoom function on your iphone.

The high resolution and low noise floormakes this possible, Still you loose some resolution when not utilizing the whole image circle of the lens but shooting s35 sized sensor with FF glas is still something we considered ok for a long time.

And if having 8 lenses between 14mm and 180mm its not so often you really need a step in between.

 

[Les Hillis]

You dont need use a ”calculated” crop you simply swap to another res in camera...

That sounds easy enough then, I thought you were talking about doing something more complicated.

Makes me wonder now what the limits are for digital zooming.

 

[Mathias Erichsen]

This is sort of my plan too!
I did not do the 100mm and 180mm for now tho, but thinking about doing the 50-300mm later on - it is slow at f4.5 but a verry, verry good zoom!
I’ll get mine back from rehousing at KimCamera soon..
BTW: How good does the 180mm match the FD’s?

 

[Tobi Rupp]

Great idea and worth to think about.....

Thx Björn....

 

[Björn Benckert]

This is sort of my plan too!
I did not do the 100mm and 180mm for now tho, but thinking about doing the 50-300mm later on - it is slow at f4.5 but a verry, verry good zoom!
I’ll get mine back from rehousing at KimCamera soon..
BTW: How good does the 180mm match the FD’s?

Dont know how that BNC-r Nikkor 180mm will match, possibly not so good, but its a gem. Like really one of a kind. People pay fortunes for them.

 

[David Peterson]

I've been doing this with my 8K Helium to cut between medium and CU shots on corporate shoots where subjects are taking directly to camera with a teleprompter setup in front of the lens. When you got someone talking for 8 hours, you're not going to want to shoot it all a second time with a longer lens if exhibition is on YouTube where 1080p will do. One of the biggest selling points to my corporate clients.

Heh, if it is merely going to social media then heck you can crop in to 720 if you wish!

Here is a little thing I filmed on Saturday night (while drunk ish! ha) merely in 1080 from a BMPCC, which you can see the editor did some punch ins with:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10213215854125731