"simple and ridiculous" dragon vs Mx test..

[Denis Buhot]

gunleik...

gunleik...

[
you obviously are the expert that I am not and shall never be. No kidding. I truly respect you. It simply happens that my field of expertise consists in... simply getting my subject in my frame, then shoot, and rely on my camera to give me the best image possible, even so when light goes scarce. That is very difficult at times, believe me... There is no practical way in my area I can test the dragon. Upgrade is not for free....So, I need something that is close to my very modest routine : natural lighting, dim light, rather low-contrast environment. A test that takes less time than any educated explanation. A test anyone would require for any dslr review, and presented in a very simple way. So what ?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

understood.

said i can do it when I have it back.

 

[Björn Benckert]

not saying that is not better than MX , for what is have tried on my CC system looks way better

just saying that people keep talking about this long waited new color science ( for post) but the fact that they prefer to have camera shooting and finishing out there without the color science being available means that maybe the difference will not be that big (i mean between using Redcolor 3 and the possible new "dragon color" )

i guess will see ...

Possibly true...

I still think I see where it has potential, and I think I saw some of exactly that in Jarreds OLPF images. But they cannot be taken as a test. I know that. But for lowlight performance, if those were an indication, I think the difference can be significant.

But of course, I do not KNOW that. I just see the potential.

I might be wrong but to me all the different color science stuff red gamma, 2 3 and so on does not change much. For me they are all just starting points before colors are dialed in. For example I find it quite possible to start of from Camera RGB when grading and get to the same end result as if I started with RED GAMMA3..

So basically I wonder, can we really expect this new coming dragon color science to make huge difference to the end results?

Will it really affect noise floor and such things? Is it not just more of a hunt for a perfect to what is visible color to the eye matching kind of gamma curve?


To me such of perfection is not really the aim, as I find it very rare that I sit and grade images and try to make the colors look anything near what they actually looked like in real / when shot...

But are we actually hoping for the new color science to improve the actual image from the dragon more than that. Will the new color science take away noise / make the sensor more sensitive to light and so on...?


To me thats far to much to hope for. I think Graeme can make the colors a bit more accurate and such but I would be very happily surprised if he actually could change it so the any other parameters than color accuracy where changed... or am I completely wrong here?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Agree with that, Björn... But I think I see how a tweak can change a few things still.

 

[Les Hillis]

Back again. Didn't know if I'd come back to find the link to the video deleted or what. Looks like hardly anyone's noticed or cared to check it out anyway. Will leave the video up if no-one objects. I don't think it misrepresents either of the camera's used, and while it obviously doesn't cover all the bases of comparison, there are still some interesting details in there if people want to look for them.

 

[Niko Pueringer]

Back again. Didn't know if I'd come back to find the link to the video deleted or what. Looks like hardly anyone's noticed or cared to check it out anyway. Will leave the video up if no-one objects. I don't think it misrepresents either of the camera's used, and while it obviously doesn't cover all the bases of comparison, there are still some interesting details in there if people want to look for them.

I found both shots looking extremely similar. Did anyone have any interesting takeaways from that test?

 

[Les Hillis]

Dragon is better. But depending on your subject, how you shoot and grade it, and what your viewing medium is, the 'betterness' of the Dragon might not be obvious, or even noticeable. Same as with the Epic MX when compared to 'lesser' camera's. The sensor is only part of it.

When he first posted the footage, Gunleik gave a warning about not using it to judge things about the sensor that the footage wasn't designed to show. That still stands.

The video I posted isn't a very good example of how to show off all the differences between the Dragon and MX sensors. For that you'd need a variety of shots showing a range of subject matter under different lighting conditions, each emphasizing some subtle or not so subtle characteristic or another.

For the purposes of making objective comparisons, the first eight shots of that video I posted are the most important, the others show the unavoidably subjective weight of my hand and the marks of the tools I was using to 'grade' with. I'm not a 'proper' colourist and Premiere Pro isn't a 'proper' colouring program.

Still, despite my input and the MP4/Youtube compression, in several places in the video you can still see signs of the superior resolution, colour and latitude of the Dragon.

That's my take on it.

 

[Denis Buhot]

understood.

said i can do it when I have it back.

Agreed, Gunleik. I'm glad you got it I meant nothing wrong.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Agreed, Gunleik. I'm glad you got it I meant nothing wrong.

And I think anything within REDs specs is good..

800 - 2000 ISO equals a bit less than a stop and a half difference.

As to "measurable sensibility", I know the difference is more.

VBut if the usefulness is within that range, I still think it is good...

 

[luigivaltulini]

Gunleik in recent months has explained Dragon, Phil, etc. etc.. have made many tests for us, each of us has followed and answered as soon as possible, this is a huge effort and contributes a lot to our community.
They are people who have much experience and technique.
Dragon is something different, even my DP be noticed right away, no use denying that we must relearn to expose it but once you understand it is a monster like no other, slowly we get there.
In grading is nice, very delicate is different from MX, but you have to live with this person, once tried hard to go back.
I do not think you have to have doubts about doing this update, I understand that $ 9,000 is a lot, but believe me Dragon is worth much more.
Today I have returned Epic and DRagon at home tomorrow if the weather does not throw tantrums I go for two shots for Denis.
Keep in mind guys, that these shots do not show what it's worth DRagon.
I think Denis just want to know if it is less noisy.
I forgot to have returned from the rental Epic and DRagon and I shot on the fly in seconds against the window of my house with the sun behind with Epic and Dragon, same goal the same opening, all the same, I tried to get something on the face without too much overexposure behind, on Epic, even if difficult.
It 's just a share is not a test, a little something extra to play.
Dragon has a lot more and much more ...

https://copy.com/YhzNkpd0JMQU

 

[Denis Buhot]

thanks a lot, Luigi

thanks a lot, Luigi

for your time and care ! For some reason, I cannot get the E014_C002 clip correcly downloaded. Tried twice, and I still get it offline on redcineX... No way I can compare, then, however badly I wish I could compare ! Can you try to post the clip again ? Thanks again

 

[Jason Diamond]

At some point, how much more reassurance do people need that the Dragon sensor is an improvement over the (4-years-old?) MX sensor? Does anyone expect a test that shows that there is no improvement?

Personally, I'd rather see a test comparing it to the Sony F65, which is the Dragon's nearest competitor. Or the Alexa, which is the current dynamic range king. Once the conversions to Dragon have taken place at the rental houses, and the Dragon color science is done, and the new OLPF is installed, I don't see renting an MX-sensor Epic anyway so it's mainly just curiosity at this point to see it compared to the Dragon.

Thanks David I was gonna reply with the exact same thing. Seems unnecessary to compare 2 products, one which is clearly an improvement over the other, to see which is better.

 

[luigivaltulini]

for your time and care ! For some reason, I cannot get the E014_C002 clip correcly downloaded. Tried twice, and I still get it offline on redcineX... No way I can compare, then, however badly I wish I could compare ! Can you try to post the clip again ? Thanks again

Denis , work whit Redcine-x22 .
i download now this files and work perfect.
try again
tomorrow i shot yours clip .

thanks you

 

[Denis Buhot]

ok !

ok !

I got it working. VERY interesting, indeed. I send you a private message separately. I guess everyone should take a look, Jason included, just to see how much better Dragon is over MX !

 

[luigivaltulini]

ok seen pm.

 

[paul schefz]

Gunleik in recent months has explained Dragon, Phil, etc. etc.. have made many tests for us, each of us has followed and answered as soon as possible, this is a huge effort and contributes a lot to our community.
They are people who have much experience and technique.
Dragon is something different, even my DP be noticed right away, no use denying that we must relearn to expose it but once you understand it is a monster like no other, slowly we get there.
In grading is nice, very delicate is different from MX, but you have to live with this person, once tried hard to go back.
I do not think you have to have doubts about doing this update, I understand that $ 9,000 is a lot, but believe me Dragon is worth much more.
Today I have returned Epic and DRagon at home tomorrow if the weather does not throw tantrums I go for two shots for Denis.
Keep in mind guys, that these shots do not show what it's worth DRagon.
I think Denis just want to know if it is less noisy.
I forgot to have returned from the rental Epic and DRagon and I shot on the fly in seconds against the window of my house with the sun behind with Epic and Dragon, same goal the same opening, all the same, I tried to get something on the face without too much overexposure behind, on Epic, even if difficult.
It 's just a share is not a test, a little something extra to play.
Dragon has a lot more and much more ...

https://copy.com/YhzNkpd0JMQU

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! thanks you....really...maybe i am crazy but that is a perfect test....shows all i need to know....
extra DR is definitely there, after blowing 16bit tiffs up to bill board size, i am not really sure there is much in terms of extra resolution....noise seems to be pretty much the same, both at 800, i expected dragon to be cleaner....
either way, definitely a difference in the the way these can be manipulated in post.....not so sure the difference would be that obvious in a more controlled environment....
i am looking forward to seeing the final color science, the face looks a little grayish/muddy with epic but a little too vibrant with dragon,
and again thank you so much for providing these files!

 

[Denis Buhot]

Yes...

Yes...

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! thanks you....really...maybe i am crazy but that is a perfect test....shows all i need to know....
extra DR is definitely there, after blowing 16bit tiffs up to bill board size, i am not really sure there is much in terms of extra resolution....noise seems to be pretty much the same, both at 800, i expected dragon to be cleaner....

simple, yet perfect job, very poor shooting conditions, very demanding shot for a sensor : yet, it shows extra DR, much better color rendition... obviously a much better sensor, apart from noise. Unfortunately, in that respect, improvement does not seem to match expectations.

 

[Matt Ryan]

My take on Luigi's comparison. Tried to get levels matching as best as possible. Dragon definitely is better on both ends, has less noise than MX when downsampled to same 5K frame, has better color reproduction, and just overall looks better. To me it's pretty obvious the leap in technology and the highly increased DR. Look how well the hot spots of the clouds roll into the less hot spots. Check out the flare coming from a windshield behind the tree on both. Pretty cool stuff. The MX in the low end gets very muddy and washed out looking while Dragon maintains detail and great color saturation. I'm impressed. Thank you Luigi.

Excuse the jpeg compression, it added a bitt of noise. Dragon looks good... I think we need to move on from the MX/Dragon tests and focus on Alexa, F65, F55 comparisons now.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

See it in colors and DR and... Most of it

 

[Gunleik Groven]

This is still very uncontrolled, but there are a few significant differences which comes out here, except the DR.

The colorchart is pretty telling.

Nope.

I have not applied "the same" grade to these two, but just tried to get them out with primary corrections. Matt is better at that than I am, But it illustrates a few of the base differences I see...