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Should we purchase a red camera?

Jens Korsgaard

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Hey everyone!

First off, sorry if this is posted in the wrong forum section; I was a bit unsure as to whether it should be posted here or elsewhere. Feel free to move it accordingly, if this is wrong!

Secondly, I would like to say that I've been lurking around on this forum for some time, and enjoyed it quite a bit! The atmosphere here seems very friendly, and I look forward to being a part of the community! This also brings me to the actual topic of my post. A friend and myself has been studying media at the university for some time now (just finished our bachelors :) ), however most of the education revolves around theory rather than practical experiences. As such, we feel as though our actual field-experience is regretably limited. Furthermore, we've not had too great equipment to work with when we finally got to go shoot something. As such, we have decided to throw all our money into starting our own business, which primarily will revolve around communication/discourse in regards to image etc. In addition, we'd like to be able to shoot commercials etc. for small business owners, however in a far better quality than which they usually have access to within their price-range. More importantly, however, we also want to start putting some of our short-movie ideas into production with some proper equipment. So while you could say that we are looking to buy a camera for our business, the end goal (so to speak) is to move into the more professional movie-making business. Surely, this is at this point merely a dream, but I suppose that all indie-filmmakers has been where we are.

Now, my question is whether its actually feasible to consider a Red camera. As I mentioned, we want a camera which is capable of producing better pictures than that of the equipment which we've used (for instance, we used an old Panasonic camera which I cannot recall the name of :( ), and we both agree that we really dig what red can produce. However, we do not have too much cash to spent right now. We're currently able to use roughly 17000$, which needs to cover tri-pod, dolly (I reckon), a lense and the actual camera production package. Simply put, is it at all doable to get away with getting a Red One with the mentioned equipment for said price, or should we aim lower for now? The goal is ultimately to convert to Red, if we cannot afford one initially, however it would obviously be great if we could get away with getting one right away.

I've obviously done some research myself, however its a difficult field to research and its easy to get lost, thus this post.

I should mention, that we do have more cash to spent, however I would like to not go above 17000, as we need money to spent on light, sound etc.

In advantage, thanks so much for the help :) It is a rather daunting task to start up like this, so its awesome that there is a community such as this available to lost souls such as us! :)

- Jens Korsgaard
 
Unless you shoot a lot you should probably considering renting rather than spending a huge part of what you have on something that may or may not ever pay itself off. Of course, this partly depends on where you are located, but if you're in or near any area in which significant amounts of production take place, you can probably rental availability of everything from Red Ones to Epics at a very low daily rate. If you're getting paid for the commercial gigs, that should more than cover that cost with no outlay on your part.

Just a thought.
 
We did actually discuss that option, however the point of the operation is to have a camera which allows us to put theory into practise, so we will most likely be shooting a lot; maybe not so much commercially as much as for our own personal projects :) renting would likely not give us enough time per shoot to play around with it. Sorry for the poor spelling, writing from my phone currently.
 
Owning facilitates fast learning, so I'm with you on that...

That said, a Red One requires substantial support gear, which a Scarlet would not. If you're wanting to learn industry standard grip and accessories then this may be a non starter, but a Scarlet would allow the use of much cheaper lighter accessories. Don't forget that your budget should include insurance, and that a warranty on a new product can be worth a great deal too.
 
Not sure if its possible where you are, but I suggest reaching out to local RED camera owners you might be able to work out a deal with. Some individuals and rental houses have their cameras working constantly, but others have a lot of shelf time between projects/rentals. Maybe offer some cash and perhaps barter some crew days (great way to learn real world production skills) in exchange for extended time with the camera package. I further suggest that you secure insurance that would cover the gear as that reduces the risk to the camera owner.

IAC, buying a camera package (even used) with only $17,000 in hand is unlikely to turn out well. Do you know anyone you could put together a co-op with, perhaps a local filmmakers group, etc. If you were local I'd offer you time with my camera package in exchange for crew days I could bill to my clients - which would also give me a chance to make sure you knew enough not to damage my gear. As long as you agreed to have it back to me on short notice if I booked a gig, and had proper insurance, even $500/week would be better than having it sit on the shelf.

Just sayin'

Cheers - #19
 
Used Red One maybe? There are kits for sale around $10k... which doesn't leave much for a lens and tripod but maybe is possible.
 
We did actually discuss that option, however the point of the operation is to have a camera which allows us to put theory into practise, so we will most likely be shooting a lot; maybe not so much commercially as much as for our own personal projects :) renting would likely not give us enough time per shoot to play around with it. Sorry for the poor spelling, writing from my phone currently.



There were a few things you didnt mention in your original post;

-Your post production and storage setup; You have a decent sized budget, but having the camera will do you no good if you dont have the power to process it all.

-What other gear you currently own; From the way you worded your original message it seems like you dont have much other gear at the moment, which, in certain ocassions, be more important than the camera itself. (ie: it would be very hard to shoot in the dark without lights ... )

-How you both plan to use the camera; Will you both be taking turns using the camera ? Will you schedule days ? .. No matter how close you two may be ... it will always get complicated when you both want to "eat from the same plate" , so to speak.



I think you might be better off looking into the black magic line of cameras. They produce great images (though the RED color space is pretty unique)

But, for the budget you have, and your specific situation .. I think it would be the best bang for the buck. Especially considering the EF and MFT versions (not pocket). Just went down to US$1995 (and this includes a copy of DaVinci Resolve).

You'd be able to pick up;

-A good production computer (or two)
-2 Raw Cinema Cameras
-A complete lens set (of Rokinon/Samyang), or lenses of you choice ( NON-L series , of course)
-Plenty of hard drives
-a mobile DIT station (laptop + external drives to dump footage)
-and any grip/electric you may need.

and depending on the specifics of what you get... you should have some money left over for your overhead of any future costs. (or maybe rentals.)



Just my 0.02


The only downside to this is you wouldnt have any slowmo, since the cameras dont shoot anything above 30p.
And, .. BMCC footage lacks raw compression , so your going to need more hard drive space if you shoot raw. But unlike RED , you do have ProRES and DNXHD.

If you both were further along in experience i'd say get the RED., but i feel like this setup would be best to help you both grow.
 
There were a few things you didnt mention in your original post;

-Your post production and storage setup; You have a decent sized budget, but having the camera will do you no good if you dont have the power to process it all.

-What other gear you currently own; From the way you worded your original message it seems like you dont have much other gear at the moment, which, in certain ocassions, be more important than the camera itself. (ie: it would be very hard to shoot in the dark without lights ... )

-How you both plan to use the camera; Will you both be taking turns using the camera ? Will you schedule days ? .. No matter how close you two may be ... it will always get complicated when you both want to "eat from the same plate" , so to speak.



I think you might be better off looking into the black magic line of cameras. They produce great images (though the RED color space is pretty unique)

But, for the budget you have, and your specific situation .. I think it would be the best bang for the buck. Especially considering the EF and MFT versions (not pocket). Just went down to US$1995 (and this includes a copy of DaVinci Resolve).

You'd be able to pick up;

-A good production computer (or two)
-2 Raw Cinema Cameras
-A complete lens set (of Rokinon/Samyang), or lenses of you choice ( NON-L series , of course)
-Plenty of hard drives
-a mobile DIT station (laptop + external drives to dump footage)
-and any grip/electric you may need.

and depending on the specifics of what you get... you should have some money left over for your overhead of any future costs. (or maybe rentals.)



Just my 0.02


The only downside to this is you wouldnt have any slowmo, since the cameras dont shoot anything above 30p.
And, .. BMCC footage lacks raw compression , so your going to need more hard drive space if you shoot raw. But unlike RED , you do have ProRES and DNXHD.

If you both were further along in experience i'd say get the RED., but i feel like this setup would be best to help you both grow.
I agree with this approach. Learn on these entry level cinema cameras and move up to the RED and other high end tools when you have commercial gigs that start floating in based on the reel you have built with the other cameras. Even the pocket camera would be a good starting point. It's like having a S16 camera and eventually moving up to 35mm.

The budget you have will run out quickly if going the other route. But $17K investing in the BM cameras will get you up and running quickly and I'd guess you'll have a lot of fun in the process. And when that big job comes up that demands a RED, a rental will work until you have the capital to buy your own rig.
 
I agree with this approach. Learn on these entry level cinema cameras and move up to the RED and other high end tools when you have commercial gigs that start floating in based on the reel you have built with the other cameras. Even the pocket camera would be a good starting point. It's like having a S16 camera and eventually moving up to 35mm.

The budget you have will run out quickly if going the other route. But $17K investing in the BM cameras will get you up and running quickly and I'd guess you'll have a lot of fun in the process. And when that big job comes up that demands a RED, a rental will work until you have the capital to buy your own rig.


+1 :glare:
 
Yes, what Elias said... there is so much support and grip gear needed to really give a pro look. Of course we would like to recommend Red, but if that is your budget, that price drop on the BM EF is amazing, considering that DaVinci Resolve costs $1K all by itself. Learn to use a great camera. Learn to grade RAW footage. Then move up and keep the BM EF for future BTS footage.
 
Depending where you are located I would at least look to meet other owner ops. You can maybe cut a deal when they have down time and can have an instructor...


If your dead set on owning I'd at least consider starting on a cheaper cinema camera and waiting to see what Red does with all these used Scarlets being traded in for Epics. I personally believe one day they will liquidate them like they did with the BT Red Ones. That day might not be as far away as some think... Though this is conjecture on my part...


So I'd totally weigh your other options. BMC, 5D, and stuff that is cheaper can still shoot a good picture. Certain purchases carry over to multiple camera systems, such as nice glass, sticks, matte box, rails, follow focus, etc. The post purchases matter too...


I bought a Red without the customer base and luckily was able to sublease it to a popular rental house a week and a half ago. Sure its fun to shoot my own projects on it, but that doesn't pay my bills and my families been giving me a lot of flack for this "bad investment" so I need to leave it at the rental house a couple years to try and recoup on it. The whole if you buy it the business will come in theory doesn't always pan out I suppose lol...

Granted I've made enough as a camera tech that I can kind of just wing it, but I'm hoping my Dragon rentals will at least be a nice side income for me for the next couple years in addition to whatever I do freelance wise.

I'd suggest a Scarlet over a Red One, simply because its form factor is so much more mobile. But you might want a Red One for the CF cards or Red Drives since those are dirt cheap to use as media...
 
We did actually discuss that option, however the point of the operation is to have a camera which allows us to put theory into practise, so we will most likely be shooting a lot; maybe not so much commercially as much as for our own personal projects :) renting would likely not give us enough time per shoot to play around with it. Sorry for the poor spelling, writing from my phone currently.

+ 1. Why I got the EPIC-X as well. My recommendation is a strong YES. But be aware the camera will not be the only expenditure. I ended up also building my own 3K$$ PC to edit/colorcorrect etc., as just one example, let alone all the various accessories I had to (and admittedly, wanted to) get.
 
If the budget for the camera alone is 17K: Yes, what else :o)

My 2 cents.
 
I guess waiting for battle tested scarlets is definitely another option ... those should be right around the corner with all the dragon updates and scarlet trade ins.

Though ... time spent waiting .... is time better spent making $$ or working on your reel.

+1 on the idea of linking up with other RED owners in your area. Maybe you could should a test project as a collab (if they're willing). And it would ultimately give you insight on whether or not you're actually wanting to go that route.
 
well what do you shoot? what kind of environment? i love my scarlet and i am first time owner for the last year or so. however, if i was doing documentary and reality tv, i wouldnt choose the red. if you are in a market, as i am, a canon C 100 will do just fine. anything just above a slr that is. for either of those for mentioned situations, I would reccomend the Canon C100 or C300 and maybe others on the market similar. if you do film work or high end commercial work, especially work involving compositing, green screen, etc, or shoots where you want to pull high quality still images for print, then red is a perfect. choice. like others mention, it does take a lot of support gear. i got my scarlet for about $15k with extras, i have since added $5-10k. and i had a computer (dont have red rocket, probably wont get it), and lots of grip and electric gear. also i had lenses, thus I went with the scarlet EF mount.
 
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