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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Should I upgrade to M-X sensor?

James T Mather said:
Well, dual mis-use of possessive grammar aside (your brain's what exactly?) - your condescending response is not a constructive argument.
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Let's keep the discussion friendly.

I
have seen (and heard) many things about the MX sensor (some public, some very private) - I have heard many arguments from many top end professionals working with the footage who tell me there is no difference in the sensors in well-lit properly exposed footage.
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To a certain extent, this can be true. Sensitivity of the sensor hasn't changed much. So you may not see a huge difference under a well exposed scene.
Further, that there are contrast streaking issues with the sensor, that the footage seems more videolike in its motion and so on.
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Can you give a bit more detail on this. What exactly are people seeing and do you happen to have any samples? In terms of motion, are you referring to read/reset issues, or some other specific issues that are giving the sensor a videolike characteristic? I think this needs a further explanation.
I have also heard it's faster (in ISO terms) but this is not in itself a benefit if the contrast builds up too, nor the video-like motion rendering.
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Again, need more details and examples.
Further I have plunked down a chunk of change to purchase an Epic only to be told shortly afterwards that there is now a bug in the system (From what I have heard I suspect I know what this is) that has been plaguing Red for two months (that means they took my Epic down-payment knowing about the bug).
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Understandable that you'd be frustrated. Jim is throwing some money at the problem to try to ease that frustration and get Epics out as soon as possible. He's out shooting with the cameras himself to get in the trenches. They want it right. I don't think there is any plot to grab people's money and then make them wait. For those who are less adventurous and perhaps not a fan of RED's open policies and loose delivery schedules, I think one of the later stages is probably better. This process isn't for everyone. And that's not a shot at you James. You may be ok with how RED does things in general but perhaps just frustrated on this one point and that's okay.
We are using our brains. You?
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I find using my brain gets me into trouble.:biggrin5:
 
James T Mather said:
Again - any chance of some concrete info as opposed to emotive vague heresay?
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Are there any A/B comparison tests available to view?

If not, is there anyone who can get an R1-M and R1-MX together for tests? It would be a REDuser community service for which I'm sure all RED owners would be grateful.

Edit: Dylan beat me to it.
 
Thank you Dylan - Much appreciated.

I always said that you CSC guys were the best :)

@ Steve - I am generally friendly but was reacting to the former post's unfriendly condescending tone. Thanks for your thoughts in your response - appreciated.
 
James T Mather said:
@ Steve - I am generally friendly but was reacting to the former post's unfriendly condescending tone. Thanks for your thoughts in your response - appreciated.
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I know you are. I was hoping that it wasn't going to turn into a back and forth about those comments, as your general question of whether you should upgrade is a legitimate one. $5750 is not a drop in the bucket for most people. You should feel confident in your purchase, so asking questions, gathering up information is very valid.

I made the decision to go with M-X upgrade. It has allowed me to shoot in scenarios that would have been very difficult with Mysterium. For example, I just shot some footage for a boxing documentary and some of the locations can be dimly lit, or just badly lit and short of lighting up the place which is what I'd probably elect to do with M, the other option is to shoot with existing lighting and see what you get. M-X has fared well.

I would like to see some more information about the streaking and motion artifacting if you can possibly do that.
 
Steve - what ISO do you think the MX can run to for a cinema job (2.35:1) -

I am also referring to digital systems inherent tendency to build up contrast and saturation tends to polarise as the ISO is cranked (is this the case with the MX sensor?) - So far I have rarely shot the camera outside its baseline ISO - Maybe 500 at a push.

Thank you -

The streaking issue was told to me about a recent high profile production using the MX camera where the (very notable) director was forced to modulate his shots to accommodate the sensor's tendency to streak when confronted with very high dynamic range subjects - perhaps this has been solved at this point.

There is another thread relating to the cameras motion rendition.
 
James T Mather said:
Steve - what ISO do you think the MX can run to for a cinema job (2.35:1) -
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Depends on the subject matter, and overall dynamics of a scene, but in general I have been very comfortable rating the camera from 320-1600. I have pushed some shots over 2500 with mixed results. But for most things I do, living in that 320-1600 range is fine. Even some things I shot recently at ISO 2000 were very acceptable to me.
I am also referring to digital systems inherent tendency to build up contrast and saturation tends to polarise as the ISO is cranked (is this the case with the MX sensor?) - So far I have rarely shot the camera outside its baseline ISO - Maybe 500 at a push.
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M-X seems to handle these higher ISOs very well, and I don't notice these build ups that you mention. In terms of noise, it seems to be very clean up to 1600 and pleasantly noisy from there up to 2500, and then acceptably (obviously subjective) noisy from 2500 to 3400, and above that it's very much scene dependent and based on your threshold for noise.

The streaking issue was told to me about a recent high profile production using the MX camera where the (very notable) director was forced to modulate his shots to accommodate the sensor's tendency to streak when confronted with very high dynamic range subjects - perhaps this has been solved at this point.
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I'll see if I can find a shot that illustrates what you are talking about. Had something recently that I didn't attribute to the sensor but rather lens/light interaction.
There is another thread relating to the cameras motion rendition.
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Which one? I'd like to read that thread.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
in general I have been very comfortable rating the camera from 320-1600. .....Even some things I shot recently at ISO 2000 were very acceptable to me.
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Thanks for that very comprehensive breakdown. Appreciated.

Just to clarify the point in my mind, what is the fastest ISO rating would you have shot the Red One at?

Thanks...

The streaking problem that I heard caused difficulties must have been solved in the meantime.
 
James T Mather said:
Again - any chance of some concrete info as opposed to emotive vague heresay?
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Not sure what you are referring to, but Ive upgraded all 3 of my bodies to the MX sensor and would do it all again. The difference is visual and its easy to tell the the two sensors apart. The new MX sensor suppresses all the noisy blacks that we experienced with the original sensor. With the MX, footage is much cleaner and exposing in low light is not a challenge. Anyone who has said otherwise does not know what they are talking about.

We regularly shoot at ISO 800 and the images look great.

Our MX bodies rent 10 to 1 over the Red One body. Your Red One is a three year old digital camera...its time for the upgrade. It really shouldnt be considered an option.
 
From another thread about the strange video motion behavior.

J. Eric Camp said:
Okay:

First, for that odd motion you saw: restore the camera to factory defaults. It will go away. Make sure you are on 30.5

Second, open gate is a evf, display only selection. It makes for smoother motion in the evf. If you want more motion blur do it with the shutter. Ie a 360* shutter.
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With M-Sensor, I would rate 200-500, most of the time at 320. For ENG stuff, I never liked to go past 640. 2% of the time I might have went to 800 and 0.0001% I would go to 1000, oh godddddddd my eyesss!!!

With MX-Sensor, I rate it at 200-1600, most of the time at 800. Night exteriors at 2000. Sometimes, for fun, 3200.

Best part is being able to expose at 800 and bring back your highlights or easily push your shadows. You have a lot more flexibility in post with this new rating benchmark
 
After upgrading 2 cameras, it seems
a no brainer. Once you're particular
market is saturated with MX cameras
then R-1's quickly fall from grace. If you
do you're own work wait, if you rent your
gear/ are shooting for someone else then
upgrade or you WON'T rent the package for
long.
 
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