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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Should I get the Epic Dragon Upgrade or the MOVI?

I would add that Movi can be used for fewer shots than you think. It's funny because Laforest "sold" the 5D with Reverie, and now he's selling this with another film, and both cases are very similar. In both cases there is a sexy selling approach that does not point out - is not even all that honest about - limitations. Reverie didn't have any brick or thin lines in focus, or mostly in-focus shots that would break the codec, no quick pans that would be destroyed by skew, etc - and the Movi film does not have walk and talks, slower movements, or any of the many other actually very common situations where a dolly or Steadicam would be much more suitable tools and Movi would not really work, as the Movi does not stabilize camera position at all, only pan/tilt/roll. A dolly, a jib and a Steadicam stabilize BOTH. When you're running fast or on roller-skates (as is the case in almost all the shots in his film) this is not an issue as very strong momentum-based inertia will help smooth things - the rest of the time (i.e. most of the time) it very much is an issue.

Adding to this is the fact that many manufacturers are soon (within 5 months maybe even less) releasing highly competitive products for $9-10K less. Will you amortize 9-10K in 5 months of just Movi-added billings/rentals? I don't think so.
 
Movi. j/k. No really get the tool that you see yourself using more. If you are in a position where you are hired a lot for high end cinema then go with the Dragon. If you see yourself being a specialist called in for stedicam type work get a Movi and pitch your services as such.
 
+1 very valid! hell on roller skates or a board people make a vx look fluid as heck... it very well could be the constant motion smoothing out the handheldyness of it...

ps does movi have a message forum? we might be biased lol...

Robert Ruffo New said:
I would add that Movi can be used for fewer shots than you think. It's funny because Laforest "sold" the 5D with Reverie, and now he's selling this with another film, and both cases are very similar. In both cases there is a sexy selling approach that does not point out - is not even all that honest about - limitations. Reverie didn't have any brick or thin lines in focus, or mostly in-focus shots that would break the codec, no quick pans that would be destroyed by skew, etc - and the Movi film does not have walk and talks, slower movements, or any of the many other actually very common situations where a dolly or Steadicam would be much more suitable tools and Movi would not really work, as the Movi does not stabilize camera position at all, only pan/tilt/roll. A dolly, a jib and a Steadicam stabilize BOTH. When you're running fast or on roller-skates (as is the case in almost all the shots in his film) this is not an issue as very strong momentum-based inertia will help smooth things - the rest of the time (i.e. most of the time) it very much is an issue.

Adding to this is the fact that many manufacturers are soon (within 5 months maybe even less) releasing highly competitive products for $9-10K less. Will you amortize 9-10K in 5 months of just Movi-added billings/rentals? I don't think so.
Click to expand...
 
While the MOVI is a fantastic contraption, I've seen a couple of cheaper alternatives being developed; get Dragon!
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
I would add that Movi can be used for fewer shots than you think. It's funny because Laforest "sold" the 5D with Reverie, and now he's selling this with another film, and both cases are very similar. In both cases there is a sexy selling approach that does not point out - is not even all that honest about - limitations. Reverie didn't have any brick or thin lines in focus, or mostly in-focus shots that would break the codec, no quick pans that would be destroyed by skew, etc - and the Movi film does not have walk and talks, slower movements, or any of the many other actually very common situations where a dolly or Steadicam would be much more suitable tools and Movi would not really work, as the Movi does not stabilize camera position at all, only pan/tilt/roll. A dolly, a jib and a Steadicam stabilize BOTH. When you're running fast or on roller-skates (as is the case in almost all the shots in his film) this is not an issue as very strong momentum-based inertia will help smooth things - the rest of the time (i.e. most of the time) it very much is an issue.

Adding to this is the fact that many manufacturers are soon (within 5 months maybe even less) releasing highly competitive products for $9-10K less. Will you amortize 9-10K in 5 months of just Movi-added billings/rentals? I don't think so.
Click to expand...


what do you think about this?
 
I'm Buying the MOVI first for close range aerial shots. I don't think I could justify it otherwise. There will be enough like me that you could rent from so I would say Dragon. And yes, flying a camera by radio is harder than you would think. I've gotten used to screwing around with lipo batteries and delicate gear so I know what I'm in for where others may not and be disappointed.
 
From a business point of view, if a Movi can be bought and rented out hopefully make their money back within the year, that's the best choice. You've got to be able to rent it out before the market get's too saturated with low cost gimbals. Despite the weight, I'm sure many dslr owners will rent low end gimbals for Red projects (as they do with steadi-cam equipment) cause folks may not know any better. In a year, there will be a saturation of them (like sliders and jibs).

In my neck of the woods, we're saturated with Scarlet and Epic owners. Having a Dragon and charging more is a rather hard sell. A few will be curious. A few will rent cause they want to be the best. Many will look at cost and compromise with something less (DSLR, SCARLET, other 4k cameras).

Now if you plan to shoot your own project, then maybe it's worth getting Dragon (for the look). In the long run, the DRAGON improvement of the EPIC may not be your best choice for making money.
 
I think for the next 12 months, before the streets are saturated with cheaper knock-offs, you'll be able to rent the Movi more easily (more often?) than you will a Dragon-equipped Epic. I'd go as far as saying even a Movi+5Dmk3 (with RAW hack?) combo will be more beneficial for small-time rental owner/ops than a Dragon. Look at the rental prices of Epic now -- there are multiple $500 kits available in pretty much every city, and if you actually have a budget the big rental houses will throw in the camera if you're renting any substantial lighting kit from them. Personal camera rentals are value added at this point, and not outright valuable.

That said, after those 12 months, you'll probably appreciate having Dragon much more (unless Blackmagic or someone releases a $5k FF35 5k RAW camera, which wouldn't/shouldn't be a surprise when it happens).
 
I have learned over the years that it is important to know who you are buying from. Are they responsible business people? Do they have a customer service history? Are they likely to be in business long term? These things are ultimately why I decided to buy the Movi verses a Chinese knock off.
 
Wil Wong said:
From a business point of view, if a Movi can be bought and rented out hopefully make their money back within the year, that's the best choice. You've got to be able to rent it out before the market get's too saturated with low cost gimbals. Despite the weight, I'm sure many dslr owners will rent low end gimbals for Red projects (as they do with steadi-cam equipment) cause folks may not know any better. In a year, there will be a saturation of them (like sliders and jibs).

In my neck of the woods, we're saturated with Scarlet and Epic owners. Having a Dragon and charging more is a rather hard sell. A few will be curious. A few will rent cause they want to be the best. Many will look at cost and compromise with something less (DSLR, SCARLET, other 4k cameras).

Now if you plan to shoot your own project, then maybe it's worth getting Dragon (for the look). In the long run, the DRAGON improvement of the EPIC may not be your best choice for making money.
Click to expand...

All markets are different. I've found in Toronto the finer points of image quality are a hard sell. What seems to sell is fast and cheap, and "honest" - little else. Just today I did a grade for a Toronto guy who asked me to clip the whites to make it look "more real". They do care about story and acting in Toronto (and funny is highly valued) but super carefully lit frames glistening with sex appeal are just not what seems to sell there all that often.

There is a longstanding tradition of documentary film in English Canada that doesn't care as much about "bells and whistles' and "artifice". I've seen maybe 20 English Canadian films this year, and every single one (except one, which I DP'd with my wife) of them had a doco look. I've seen 40 American films, and only a handful did. Things like Dragon in Toronto, nobody will much care. That's why there is no fashion market to speak of Toronto, and dare I say why there is no such thing as an English-Canadian box-office hit. With some exceptions I'm sure, gigs in Toronto just wants "real" which in practice means "resembling a 1970s doco as much as possible". Even Steadicam is rarely chosen over the "honesty" of shoulder cam. I'll be honest and say I find this rather bizarre. I hope it changes. There are so many nice people in the business in Toronto and the city can be great, I just wish what they looked for in cinematography was more varied.

In France, it's very, very different, as it is in the States, and even in Montreal (at least the French language stuff here is totally another ball game). Every market is completely different, and values different things, as is every sector of activity within that market.

If you're an owner-Op, Dragon offers practical advantages, like being able to shoot in very low light and not worry about skew at all. It's not just about image quality, even if your client doesn't care either way about image quality. Just like the Epic offered many advantages other than just image quality like lower weight and smaller size. If you're a rental house - I think Dragon will be much more popular than Epic MX was, although it's true, there is a glut of Epic MXs in some markets, and maybe there will be a glut of Dragons too.

Either way, I think good advice is to wait and see.
 
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