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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Should I be concerned about the Canon Announcement? What about Scarlet?

Paul J Steinberg said:
My spider-sense tells me that the Canon anouncement may be a bigger deal for those considering Scarlett. Three more sleeps and you'll know for sure though.
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My spider-sense tells me that unless Canon have licensed Redcode and everything that goes with it, they may have a 'good' camera, but they're f**ked.

Mike
 
Peter Cote said:
No I agree, but I would say only 2 out of 10 shoot may be require frame rates up to 300 FPS. 24 FPS suits most shoots just fine. Yes HDRx is a huge plus, but is not perfect either. I am not questioning whether the Epic will still be a better camera. I don't have a doubt in my mind that it will still be the leader come Thursday. But if a $15,000 camera has a 35mm sensor size, dynamic range that may not beat but is still comparable to Epic/Alexa, has PL mount, and reasonable compression, then that will satisfy a lot of professional crews.

It could be comparable to the difference between 35mm and Red. Many film makers still prefer 35mm but can't justify the cost. The same may go here but at a lower tier. They may prefer Red over Canon cinema camera, but it may be hard for them to justify the additional cost of to rent an Epic (which would likely be at least 2-4 times as much).
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All investments comes with a risk. buying a epic will for sure be a bad investment for a whole lot of people. The camera is still beta testing and there are allready a huge amount of cameras on the market.

But for me, the idea of investing in the best tool available, is much more appealing than looking for the quick cash or selling low fi solutions. For example I would have a hard time to stay focused renting out DV cams or such... epic on the other hand keeps me awake at night, reading forums and writing shit like this, and dor me thats the only way to go.
 
Peter Cote said:
I ordered my Epic M last week. It is expected to ship out later this week. I am really excited because I truly love the capabilities of the Epic, and it has potential for a huge market of renters. However... should I be concerned about the Canon announcement on Thursday? or even the Scarlet announcement?

I just made a 70K+ investment in an Epic but here is what I am hearing.

Scarlet (according to Jim) is now a professional camera and I'm sure it promises a much lower price point than the Epic. Could that greatly reduce the number of renters for a much more costly Epic rental in comparison to what Scarlet will rent for? The Scarlet may fulfill a professional's needs now at lower cost.

Then there is the much anticipated Canon announcement on the same day. Here are the rumors which people seem confident in.

  • Price: sub $15,000 – possible down to $10,000
  • Image quality: Alexa good
  • SDI outs
  • XLRs (audio)
  • Piviting & detachable monitors and grips
  • PL mount and EF mount options
  • Resolution – 4k capture, 2k recording
Those are impressive at that price point. What does everyone think? Jim what do you say? I feel like I may be the only one rooting for a crappy announcement in the interest of preserving my investment.
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I've seen it. It will be a very popular camera, but it's not an Epic competitor.
 
Its interesting, Epic users don't want a Scarlet that could compete with an Epic, And Scarlet Users don't want a Scarlet thats going to cost them both arms and legs.

It seems the customers are willing to settle on a lower performance camera (Ex. 3k vs 4k) but the manufacture won't. I think thats a first.:biggrin5:
 
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Peter Cote said:
No I agree, but I would say only 2 out of 10 shoot may be require frame rates up to 300 FPS. 24 FPS suits most shoots just fine. Yes HDRx is a huge plus, but is not perfect either. I am not questioning whether the Epic will still be a better camera. I don't have a doubt in my mind that it will still be the leader come Thursday. But if a $15,000 camera has a 35mm sensor size, dynamic range that may not beat but is still comparable to Epic/Alexa, has PL mount, and reasonable compression, then that will satisfy a lot of professional crews.

It could be comparable to the difference between 35mm and Red. Many film makers still prefer 35mm but can't justify the cost. The same may go here but at a lower tier. They may prefer Red over Canon cinema camera, but it may be hard for them to justify the additional cost of to rent an Epic (which would likely be at least 2-4 times as much).
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Peter,

You could have just as easily used this logic to justify buying a Sony F3 for $13K (or throwing in another $6K and getting 3 PL lenses to boot). And an F3 can look Alexa good sometimes.

You got a Ferrari, don't let the zero-to-sixty times for the Nissans get you down.
 
Tim Nitsch said:
Its interesting, Epic users don't want a Scarlet that could compete with an Epic, And Scarlet Users don't want a Scarlet thats going to cost them both arms and legs.

:biggrin5:
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Everybody wants to go to heaven :Angel_anim: but nobody wants to die :emote_hanged:.
 
NOpe.:)
 
Well after all the comments I can tell you I definitely have a need for the Epic. I get plenty of work that could benefit from an Epic. But I want it's value to remain as high as possible for days on the side when I rent it out. Side streams of income are the chocolate fudge and cherry on top, and I want mine to be sweet.
 
Mike 'Fireman' Ross said:
My spider-sense tells me that unless Canon have licensed Redcode and everything that goes with it, they may have a 'good' camera, but they're f**ked.

Mike
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My Spidey sense says they licensed Cineform - and that's a helluva good codec. Post has been well supported. No RedRocket required. To quote David Newman from Cineform: "CineForm 444 as DI is quality visually equivalent to posting with DPX files, just 4 to 7 times smaller files"

My Spidey sense also says Epic is safe.

Scarlet vs. the Canon vs. F3 will be interesting. I think Canon may put more of a bite into Sony than anything. RED "appears" to have a pretty strong fan base.

If Canon announced a 1080P s35mm FS-100 competitor using Cineform near $5K with HD-SDI that'll be a monster. You know their sensor is going to be good.
 
Paul Ellington said:
THE F3 really is not that great a camera .... it handles like a DSLR and the colors are well, strange....
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How is this possilbe? The F3 is shaped nothing like a DSLR.

As for the colors, IMHO, they look very nice--but that's of course subjective.
 
Peter Moretti said:
How is this possilbe? The F3 is shaped nothing like a DSLR.

As for the colors, IMHO, they look very nice--but that's of course subjective.
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Have you tried the F3 with their quote un-quote "cine" glass? You can't pull like you can on a red pro prime... I waited 10 years for the EPIC, it was worth the wait. The F3, it aptly titled, 3 f's... and the shape has no bearing on the handling, it could help but in this case... No... I'm sure an amazing DP could make it look great, I don't like the F3 at all, maybe I am a terrible DP.
 
Peter Cote said:
Well after all the comments I can tell you I definitely have a need for the Epic. I get plenty of work that could benefit from an Epic. But I want it's value to remain as high as possible for days on the side when I rent it out. Side streams of income are the chocolate fudge and cherry on top, and I want mine to be sweet.
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The REDuser community is a good resource . . . when they don't drive off into the post weeds ; )
 
Scarlet will be the camera that film students shoot their thesis projects on, and ultra lowbudget indies use instead of Dumb Shutter Low Resolution cameras.... Epics will still be used for features, commercials, and the highest level stuff... assuming you have the connections to rent your camera to those projects... I think you'll be just fine. If not, I'm sure RED will have something to offer in return. They seem to be pretty savvy about their brand management, judging by history... would you agree?
 
Jim knows that Scarlet could be a great gateway drug to more powerful RED products. You always have to bring in the entry level market to feed any consumer brand. Toyota / Lexus
 
I figured it's time to bring this thread back. A lot like I feared Red vamped the Scarlet to near Epic status. I know that Epic still has better compression/data rates, and higher FPS. However for me it's not enough to justify the additional cost. If I need that high of frame rates there are other cameras I can rent that are even better suited for high speed. Needless to say I immediately contacted my bomb squad rep and told her I am returning my Epic. Scarlet has been ordered as most of the time it offers everything I need. During those times when it doesn't I can now Rent something else that will better fit the situation.
 
Peter Cote said:
I figured it's time to bring this thread back. A lot like I feared Red vamped the Scarlet to near Epic status. I know that Epic still has better compression/data rates, and higher FPS. However for me it's not enough to justify the additional cost. If I need that high of frame rates there are other cameras I can rent that are even better suited for high speed. Needless to say I immediately contacted my bomb squad rep and told her I am returning my Epic. Scarlet has been ordered as most of the time it offers everything I need. During those times when it doesn't I can now Rent something else that will better fit the situation.
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I think that's painfully shortsighted.

If you can afford an Epic I'd stick with that.

Oh ... and what cameras are so much better suited for high speed at 5K ? The Phantom F65 can give you 144 fps at 4K, but nothing at 5K.

The 1000 fps stuff that Phantom offers at 2K/1080p is not needed much, but I think that 100fps at full resolution is much more useful.

Aside from high speed ... how about a useful 5K resolution? 5K @ 12 fps is sort of silly. It's a 4K camera, and actually a step down from Red One MX as far as that goes.

But whatever ... it means there is one more Epic out there for me to get hold of.
 
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