Shooting Documentary with Red One

[Ege Eden]

I second Big T. I am working on a laptop and on an iMac. It´s imbearably slow, but works. I would buy a 2TB HDD to back up the media with your macbook. Also there are solutions below the price of a very expensive HD solution. You can check www.dieagenten.de (hope you speak a little german here They are suggesting EIZO monitor with calibration hardware and AJA converter.

I would definetely NOT take a cinema display for judging a project. You can also edit the whole movie in FCP medium res and then go to a posthouse for finalizing.

What has not been said: the body of your Red is just a fraction of what you will need to spend. It is a very good idea to rent first before you decide. Red is a professional device to compete with industry standards and must be treated like that. For a documentary it might work with a zoomlens. For fast ENG/EFP style this is not the camera you would want.

I think I will have to swap lenses because I'll have a 18-50 to 50-150 zoom lenses...EIZO monitor, I didn't check that yet...but I'm wondering about a decent AJA card that would go with a Mac Pro or lap top...would you be able to recommend one?

 

[Ege Eden]

In short, I agree with you that bang for buck RED is not really a good choice for PAJO with a budget DOCO in mind.
but I disagree that you need a calibrated monitor and a post house to finish you projects.[Quote/]

Hey Big T,
What would you say if my project is 50 mins documentary intended
for theatrical release, would you still say that RED might not be the
best choice...
The project will be full of stable shots and half fiction...so the image
quality is pretty important for me...

I'd like to hear what you would say...

 

[Markus Rave]

Well, I am far from scaring someone away from Red. It is fast, easy but definetely slower than a regular video camera. But in my eyes the EIZO CG301 for instance is far better than the 30" Cinema display. Regarding on what you spend anyway on a Red package the 1000 USD more on the monitor is one of the best investments to be made in a postpro chain. My 2ct. That does not mean you can not do decent grading and all you need on a Cinema display. It just says I would do it different. And that´s what Red stands for in my eyes. Multiple ways do do the job. Still we are talking about a system with shallow dof and works with cine lenses. And this is something that slows you down. And of course opens a different world, too.

I have an AJA Kona LHe to watch footage in HD. You will need a converter to use them with this card though. I know AJA out of my broadcast background and like their quality. Others prefer Decklink. I think it comes down to taste and trust. With the Macbook PRO there are only firewired solutions like the V4HD as far as I know. If you do want to finalize on your Macbook, as said imbearably slow, you would want this. I´d rather opt for an 8core Mac though.

Again: don´t be scared ;-)

 

[Steven-Marc C.]

There is definitely a guerrilla way of doing things with the camera. The only problem with it is the overall weight. But there are ways to configure it so as to not suffer from it too much. Once a smart Canon mount becomes available from Birger or Alesniak it'll get even better.
Also look for some posts by Gibby where he explains how he uses the camera in ENG/EFP type of situations.

 

[Ege Eden]

I have an AJA Kona LHe to watch footage in HD. You will need a converter to use them with this card though. I know AJA out of my broadcast background and like their quality. Others prefer Decklink. I think it comes down to taste and trust. With the Macbook PRO there are only firewired solutions like the V4HD as far as I know. If you do want to finalize on your Macbook, as said imbearably slow, you would want this. I´d rather opt for an 8core Mac though.

what kind of converter are you talking about in addition to AJA? I know the KOna LHe card and it's on my list but I didn't know about another converter...

by the way, EIZO monitors are above 5000$ I don't know if it would be such an investment that would worth it...there must be another way...it's so much money for an lcd screen...

 

[Mark Toia]

In short, I agree with you that bang for buck RED is not really a good choice for PAJO with a budget DOCO in mind.
but I disagree that you need a calibrated monitor and a post house to finish you projects.[Quote/]

Hey Big T,
What would you say if my project is 50 mins documentary intended
for theatrical release, would you still say that RED might not be the
best choice...
The project will be full of stable shots and half fiction...so the image
quality is pretty important for me...

I'd like to hear what you would say...

Shoot RED if you budget can afford it. The only thing better and only by the a slender margin is film, and thats exposure latitude only. RED is sharper and cleaner.
Everything else is man hours in front of your computer.
All very simple.
If your going to do a FILM QUALITY or HD finished project. you will need a 8 core MAC with a bit of RAM finish it.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Like everyone else said, go RED for ultimate quality- but make sure you can pay an assistant, at least. The camera is modular, but is heavy and nowhere near as guerrila friendly as an ENG 2/3 Camera with auto everything or a 1/3-1/2 Handycam.

i would say the RED is excelent for Documentary jobs like Wildlife for fantastic detail, super slow motion and beautiful photography, as well as jobs that don't present many realtime changing scenarios that require improvisation and quick changes.

The 35mm DOF is stunning, but requires a focus puller. As for Post-Production, from what I've seen, its not a big hassle. Editing H264/AVCHD seems like a bigger struggle than editing Red footage.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

RED with IMS mount is a killer DOCU KIT

You can easy and fast swap all those type of mounts:

Arri PL Mount,

Panavision Mount,

BNC-R Mount,

Professional F-Mount,

Nikon F-Mount,

Canon EF-Mount,

Canon FD-Mount,

Contax Mount,

Leica-R Mount

Leica-M Mount.

MORE>>>

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Strip the camera down. Battery belt pack, ET drive mount, 15mm rods, if any. If you use the Nikon mount, you'll have access to lightweight still lenses such as the Nikkor 18-200 (although mostly for outdoors as its an F3.5/5.6). Get really good at pulling your own focus. You could shoot in 3K or 2K to make focusing a bit easier, but that defeats the purpose of the 4K camera perhaps. I have been able to keep up with an HVX200 on a shoot. But your camera needs to be ergonomically sound and you'll want to make sure you are backing up on a regular basis.

 

[Ege Eden]

Shoot RED if you budget can afford it. The only thing better and only by the a slender margin is film, and thats exposure latitude only. RED is sharper and cleaner.
Everything else is man hours in front of your computer.
All very simple.
If your going to do a FILM QUALITY or HD finished project. you will need a 8 core MAC with a bit of RAM finish it.

Hey Big T,
one last question...I really liked your Griffith Uni. ad
and I wonder if you have used any filters for that or
is it all done in the post?
This question can be taken as a general one about filters...
I'm wondering if people, who work with Red are keen on
working with filters to get the right color or rely on post-prod. -
color grading etc.?

 

[Peter Moretti]

Is it sitdown interviews, run and gun, following people around?

If your subjects are going to be moving a lot, you will need a focus puller. If it's run and gun, you are going to have to balance the thing on your shoulder & try to catch focus quickly or shoot really closed down w/ a wide angle lens.

If it's sitdown interviews, then you'll be fine as long as the subject doesn't move forward and back a lot if you shoot very wide open.

To be honest, Sony's EX-1 or EX-3 are the probably the best low/medium budget documentary cameras for the $ or Yen out there. And while people may poo poo autofocus, for docs it can be your best friend sometimes.

Yes the Red will look better blown up. However, I saw two documentaries this year (one was "Shut up and Sing" about the Dixie Chicks) that were shot on DVX's. Yes they were SD, and they still looked pretty darn good.

It just comes down to how much that extra resoultion is worth to you. And if you'll blow so much money on the camera and lenses that you'll not have enough left to finish the project even remotely properly.

As for filters, you really don't want to use colored filters w/ low compression digital cameras. Filters remove color from the light. You want as much data hitting the senor as you can get. With a camera like the Red, you do what you would normally do with colored filters in post.

HTH.

 

[Ed Watkins]

Here's my two cents.

I shoot all sorts of doc work on the RED.
For personal projects I edit with a MacBook Pro and I finish using Crimson and REDCINE. I send the projects to post houses for broadcast Color Correction.

I shoot hand held all the time. I have no focus puller. In tricky run and gun situations I use a 17-35mm Nikon, stopped way down.

Docs on the RED are very do-able, but not necessarily the best way to go.

The only reason I shoot mine on RED is for the stock footage potential, and the fact that 4K footage is unlikely to become obsolete any time soon. Also, the number of cameras that broadcasters accept as "HD source" is getting smaller (for example a show shot fully on a HVX 200 would be unlikely to qualify as 'true' HD at NatGeo or Discovery, and HDV is now a total no, no) so, for the price RED is a good future investment.

Ed.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Ed,

Makes total sense. But can you give an estimate of the total cost of your Red set up?

If he can afford it and uses it well, then the Red would be a great way to go. But can he afford it? I He won't know w/o a good estimate on the cost of a complete setup.

Ballparking, I'd say $35K using new DSLR lenses & including sticks.

BTW, how are you doing the focusing, with a follow focus or focusing ring? And how are you holding the camera handheld?

I DO agree, of course, that the higher resolution very much more "future proofs" the footage.

Thanks much.

 

[Ed Watkins]

I'd say a ballpark of $35,000 is about right with sticks and a decent set of DSLR lenses.

For hand held work I use the RED rails setup (19mm bottom rods, handle bridge plate, two handles, shoulder dovetail, and an orgio start/stop button) I find it very comfortable, although others don't.

For most work I focus using the focus ring (I like to keep my kit simple in the field). But, if the work is more controlled (such as an interview) I use a follow focus and matte box.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Thanks much for the info. Would love to see your work. Let us know when it's showing or where it's posted. Thanks again .

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Red Camera with CF Module - $18,000
Batteries/chargers - $2500
LCD - $1700
Red Drive - $900
ET Shock Mount - $500
Battery Belt Plate - $300
Handheld system - $1200 to $2500 depending on comfort level needed)
Tripod - $3000 to $5000 depending on your tolerance for smoothness
Lenses - $3000 for a couple of nice still zooms. might want to add some fast primes in there as well
Cases, cables, extra do-dads - $3000

So about $35,000 on the low end and $45,000 on a really nice setup. That's just for production gear. Post will take you into a whole other stratosphere if you don't already have infrastructure. Although, on it's most basic level, you can do post for a rather small investment. Just depends on what level you are working.

 

[Ege Eden]

Is it sitdown interviews, run and gun, following people around?

If your subjects are going to be moving a lot, you will need a focus puller. If it's run and gun, you are going to have to balance the thing on your shoulder & try to catch focus quickly or shoot really closed down w/ a wide angle lens.


To be honest, Sony's EX-1 or EX-3 are the probably the best low/medium budget documentary cameras for the $ or Yen out there. And while people may poo poo autofocus, for docs it can be your best friend sometimes.

As for filters, you really don't want to use colored filters w/ low compression digital cameras. Filters remove color from the light. You want as much data hitting the senor as you can get. With a camera like the Red, you do what you would normally do with colored filters in post.

HTH.

I'll be shooting sit-down interviews and that's why I don't think i will need
a focus puller or anybody like that...but apart from it all I see Red as a
future investment, because I'm also thinking of doing 2 shorts and a feature-length film with this camera...therefore I think I should buy red now as i'll have the money for it...

if that's the case with filters than it's great news because I really do not want to get into the world of them as I reckon that I'd be lost...

as a final word EX-1 and EX-3 seems to be good cameras but I'm really sick of trying to imitate a film look with so little and I feel that red is the way to go...

thanks for your feedbacks...

 

[Rob Castiglione]

Hi Ed

"17-35 mm stopped way down"

I just bought this lens as I am waiting for my Red so I am very interested in this - I will be using it for similar applications. I assume that you have to stop it down to increase your depth of field so that focusing becomes practical? Is the image still looking ok? What is the smallest aperture before noticeable diffraction sets in?

Rob

 

[Peter Moretti]

...
if that's the case with filters than it's great news because I really do not want to get into the world of them as I reckon that I'd be lost...

I don't feel entirely comfortable with what I said about filters. In practice, you can get away with or even find it advantageous to not use colored filters.

BUT, that's not always the case. For example, if you know you want to highlight the blues but there is only a little blue in the composition, you can use filters to remove some of the other wavelengths of light. Otherwise you'll be exposing for light values that you won't be using and have to boost the blue (which will be severely underexposed) too much in post. This can introduce noticeable noise.

In practice, this doesn't happen much. And many excellent DP's never use colored filters on cameras like the Red.

 

[Steve Gibby]

I shoot all sorts of doc work on the RED.
For personal projects I edit with a MacBook Pro and I finish using Crimson and REDCINE. I send the projects to post houses for broadcast Color Correction.

I shoot hand held all the time. I have no focus puller. In tricky run and gun situations I use a 17-35mm Nikon, stopped way down.

Docs on the RED are very do-able, but not necessarily the best way to go.

The only reason I shoot mine on RED is for the stock footage potential, and the fact that 4K footage is unlikely to become obsolete any time soon. Also, the number of cameras that broadcasters accept as "HD source" is getting smaller (for example a show shot fully on a HVX 200 would be unlikely to qualify as 'true' HD at NatGeo or Discovery, and HDV is now a total no, no) so, for the price RED is a good future investment.

Ed.

I agree with what you posted Ed. Docs and stock footage are important parts of my business. RED One can be a good doc camera if it is accessorized for doc work (think small and light), and lenses are also small and light, but still provide a good image. For doc work I’ve used the RED 18-50 and Nikon 17-35 extensively. One of my RED cameras has a Nikon mount, and the others have PL mounts. In large crew situations me and my crews often use a traditional crew (AC, Etc.), PL lenses, and traditional accessories (MB. FF, etc.). But for docs, IMO that traditional crew, lenses, and accessories are overkill – and expensive on the usually limited budgets of docs.

For docs, me and my crews focus the cameras ourselves – and myself and those who work for me on docs are deeply experienced at operating all aspects of the camera by ourselves, including focus. As you know, for docs a stopped down lens is usually the best choice, except for the occasional shallow DOF creative montage shots, which you usually have the luxury of taking your time with to get them right.

Over the past 13 months of shooting with RED One, my crews and me have constantly increased our speed in working with the camera, backing up options, and post workflow.

"17-35 mm stopped way down”

I just bought this lens as I am waiting for my Red so I am very interested in this - I will be using it for similar applications. I assume that you have to stop it down to increase your depth of field so that focusing becomes practical? Is the image still looking ok? What is the smallest aperture before noticeable diffraction sets in?

Rob

In docs, medium to deep DOF and wide-angle lenses are the norm. Shallow DOF is then sought for specialty shots and creative montages. There are some good threads on the Nikon 17-35 in the Lens forum on RED User, along with a test thread on the lens by Evin Grant. On that forum I also recently posted my impressions of the 17-35 on RED.

Most docs are shot at apertures between f/5.6 and f/11, which coincidentally is the sweet spot zone for many lenses.

Those interested in doc-style camera setups of RED One can also get a lot of info by visiting the EFP and ENG with RED forum here on RED User.

In my experience docs and doc-style production with RED One can and is being done with all four lens types on the camera: cine lenses, 35mm stills lenses, 16mm lenses, and B4 HD EFP/ENG lenses. The common denominator, no matter what lens and accessory setup you choose, is that the overall rig needs to be kept as light as possible – thus 35mm still lenses are often a very good choice.

There is also a long thread on the Accessories forum here on RED User where I posted the first pics and field use impressions of the new ET Shoulder Mount, which I have been field testing since June. The ET Shoulder Mount, in tandem with the View Factor Origo start/stop button, makes docs with RED One quite a bit easier. For months now I’ve shot docs and doc-style with that setup, the ET Shock Mount for the RED Drive, and other ET accessories – with excellent results.

Docs used to be the redheaded stepchild of the production world, but with the recent award and financial success of many docs, they can now be a very viable part of the business plan for owners of RED One.

On a personal note, I just finished a run of several months working as an Executive Producer and one of the cinematographers on a very cool documentary that will air internationally and nationally in the USA at the end of this year. I look forward to a whole bunch of docs in the future (I’m open to suggestions and proposals), for which I’ll use my Epic, RED One, and Scarlet cameras as appropriate.