Sharpening for 1080p output

[Ryan Lightbourn]

Sorry if this has been discussed before...I tried searching for an answer, but found nothing.

If I want the sharpest possible look for a 1080p music video (shooting 4k), should I:

A) Cut in 4k, sharpen in 4k, downscale final output to 1080p

B) Cut in 1080p, sharpen in 1080p, export as is

I feel like option A. would achieve more desirable results. Am I correct in this assumption, or is there not much of a difference between the two?

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

I would say you could do two sharpenings. One small to compensate for the olpf filter and from the bayern pattern. Then scale it down to 1080p and then do another sharpening to compensate for the softerning that was introduced by the interpolation from the scale.

I did a fast google to se what other say and this sounds close to what I "preach".


http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/9439/why-should-my-last-post-processing-step-be-sharpening
First of all, sharpening isn't (at least primarily) to compensate for pictures that weren't sharp -- it's primarily to reverse (or least ameliorate) the effects of interpolation that's inherent in converting the data from a typical Bayer-pattern sensor into a recognizable image.

There's also (at least typically) interpolation done when you resize an image. To compensate for that interpolation, you need to do the sharpening after the interpolation -- but you want to keep the image full size for as much post-processing a possible to maintain maximum quality in your editing. Therefore, you want to do all the other editing, then size the picture for the target, then do a final sharpening step to compensate for the interpolation in the sizing.


I wish we could have the rcx sharpeing transfered to premiere.

 

[Simon Dunne]

The key word here is not 'sharpening' but 'scaling'. If you scale incorrectly, you'll loose sharpness. So;

A) Cut in 4k, sharpen in 4k, downscale final output to 1080p

4K footage on a 4K timeline > 1080P master = 1 round of scaling

B) Cut in 1080p, sharpen in 1080p, export as is

4K footage scaled to 1080P for editing, then exported as 1080P for me seems as a double scale. An extra step that you don't really need. All effects would be 1080P, grade, sharpness etc.

I think you'll get a much better result with option A personally, but select 'use maximum render quality' when exporting for best results!

 

[Les Dittert]

If you shot anywhere near true 4K, then you only need to re-scale to get a technically 'sharp' 1080 picture.
However, there is human perception and conditioning involved, which is maybe what you are really struggling with.

Most 1080p material you are used to seeing on TV has extra sharpening on it, to add 'pop' to the picture. It's grossly artificial when you look at it closely but the Joe Sixpack consumer likes it when in the living room.
So I guess the answer to your question is to over sharpen to taste.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Apparent sharpness also depends on contrast, which could be all over the place depending on how the scene is shot and color-corrected. It's not easy to make a shot look sharp if it was shot with a lot of smoke or diffusion (as two examples). Lenses have a big effect, too.

To me, 4K is plenty sharp as it is and should yield very good 1080 downconversions without any problem. The problem with trying to come up with an overall "one size fits all" sharpening setting is that every shot reacts differently, and you're going to find that some shots will later wind up looking sharper than others. And there's always a price to pay with sharpening -- particularly the danger of artifacts under certain conditions.

 

[Al Lougher]

Always sharpen on final output (or before adding grain). That's what I learned from my photo days. You have to apply a boat load of sharpening at 4K to see any results. For web delivery I've recently been toying with a global noise filter before sharpening with great results. So something like: 4/5K->1080P uncompressed->Back into new timeline sequence then->Global Neat Video noise reduction->Unsharpen at 60% radius 1->Film Convert Pro grain 20%. It's a bit experimental right now but the results I'm getting are on par with what I'm used to seeing on the web ie nice sharp 1080P footage with a film like quality.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

I agree sharpening needs to be carefully done on shot to shot and even better with masks for best control. You dont want to add sharpening to a shirt with alot of squares in a even pattern.

 

[francisco santos]

Ive actually be doing some research on this and found the denoising the footage then sharpening is the key to get a crispy image. like anything you dont want to over do it but when you find that sweet spot oh boy oh boy!

 

[Les C.]

My assumption is to denoise then sharpen. As NeatVideo will do both at once, has anyone experimented with the 'best' settings or have advice on how to best use NeatVideo's sharpening with R3Ds? I like the effect of NeatVideo's sharpening, but ... haven't really scientifically tested it.

 

[Glen Powell]

Doesn't shooting '4KHD' give you a cleaner scale to 1080p? Didn't mean to add another variable, but if that's the case then...

And as always I preach: test, test, test. An afternoon of trying out different pipelines on a short clip that represents your footage is always smart.

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

The other question is where do you add sharpening? In the r3d/RAW/options/REDCineX or as a plugin in your editor?