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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Send good audio to RED EPIC

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Sebastian Sonzogni

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Hi everybody, I have a question for you. I´m a sound recordist and I have to work with the RED EPIC.
I had worked two days with this camera and I send mic level audio by the 3.5 mm audio jacks from my Sound Devices 302.
Do you have a best choice to send audio to the EPIC? Also I have a SD 744T and I´m using it as a back up recorder.
Could you send line level signal by the 3.5 mm jacks?
I will really appreciate your answer, thank you and best wishes.
 
You can send line level signal to the camera if you use an in line attenuator... At least for now. I think your method is spot on, except you may want to think of your 744T as your primary recorder and the audio on the Epic a scratch track or back up. Depends on the project I guess, but the 744T sound is obviously going to be superior to the sound recorded on camera. Good luck!
 
Hey Clint, long time no see. Maybe you know....I got my Scarlet just recently but am unable to get any clean audio in using either a wireless lav of handheld wired mic. All I hear is a humming sound no matter what settings I try. Have you seen this issue?
 
From what I have read here and my little bit of hands on experience - it seems that the Epic was designed to be a multi-person crew movie camera where the assumption is that there will be a dedicated audio specialist running second system sound. The Epic audio section seems to be that of a 5DII. Coming from an AF100 this took me a bit off guard since everything else about the Epic is top rate.

I use the Zoom recorder and mix in post - which for simple interview or doc work is a single shooter challenge and workflow pain. That's why my AF100 stills has a solid place in the bag
 
What's the general consensus on Epic/Scarlet's onboard audio recording quality? Is it the same as the audio on RED One? Is it unacceptable for broadcast use?

Our Epic has yet to arrive so we have not had the chance to test the sound quality yet.

I don't understand why these cameras are facing audio quality scrutiny - audio recording technology is so mature that in this day and age I take it as granted that all "pro" cameras should have full broadcast quality onboard audio capability. Perhaps we need a Sound Devices module for Epic/Scarlet if RED has failed to make the grade in the audio department!

One of the first lessons I learned is that "poor" footage can often be rescued but bad audio is a MUCH bigger problem to fix!

Feedback from audio pros appreciated.

Best wishes

Scott
 
Scott Brown said:
I don't understand why these cameras are facing audio quality scrutiny - audio recording technology is so mature that in this day and age I take it as granted that all "pro" cameras should have full broadcast quality onboard audio capability.
Click to expand...

Agree...

Our 4 year old REDONE has fantastic AUDIO...

Epic is, well.. Average to say the least...
If somebody can tell me how to get clean, loud audio onto my flies, (just like the RED ONE) I'd be a very happy man...
 
Scott Brown said:
I don't understand why these cameras are facing audio quality scrutiny - audio recording technology is so mature that in this day and age I take it as granted that all "pro" cameras should have full broadcast quality onboard audio capability.
Click to expand...
I have yet to encounter one that can, over the past 20 years. Maybe I've been unlucky.

You will always get better quality sound recording double-system, with a dedicated mixer and audio recorder. I would say that whether you're recording Alexa, Red, Sony, Canon, Panavision, JVC, Ikegami, or anything else. The preamps in all these cameras are just not very good, and there's a great risk of having somebody bump a knob or otherwise change the levels in a detrimental way.

I have no problem with people shooting under dangerous conditions (wars, riots, street footage, jungles) with onboard microphones, where there are no other options and you're literally running down the street. I also have no problem with it being used for B-roll footage, which is pretty standard, even at network/feature doco levels.

The other advantage of recording separately is the ability to multitrack. I have had occasions where 10 or 12 tracks was not enough to capture everything on the set, and that's hard to do on one camera. And in all cases, I strongly suggest that one or more of the cameras gets at least a mono reference audio feed to aid in syncing.
 
Agree with all your comments. It´s really curious that this cameras doesn´t have pro audio imputs. Also most mini HDV cameras has two XLR imputs with line level, mic level and PH 48!!!
I have to say that with the Alexa is easy to send two line signals by an XLR5.
On the first RED ONE is easy too, and you have four TA3 to send four tracks!!! What happened with the EPIC?
Sorry about my english, is not perfect...
regards to everybody and thanks again for all the info.
 
Sebastian Sonzogni said:
Agree with all your comments. It´s really curious that this cameras doesn´t have pro audio imputs. Also most mini HDV cameras has two XLR imputs with line level, mic level and PH 48!!!
I have to say that with the Alexa is easy to send two line signals by an XLR5.
On the first RED ONE is easy too, and you have four TA3 to send four tracks!!! What happened with the EPIC?
Sorry about my english, is not perfect...
regards to everybody and thanks again for all the info.
Click to expand...


The equivalent functionality (and more) of a RED ONE is provided by the PRO I/O module... i.e. 48KHz 24-bit recording, two full size XLR connectors, microphone or line levels, analog soft limiter, 20dB+ headroom over operating level, +48V phantom power, and 4-channel AES / EBU digital audio input if you have a Sound Devices 552 or equivalent mixer with digital output.

For the camera brains, the choice is more limited because the camera is very small and space first needs to be given to the 5K sensor, ASICS etc - however an EPIC or Scarlet brain still provides two channels of 24-bit 48KHz, balanced or unbalanced microphone level audio with (soon to be available) +48V phantom power.

This is NOT equivalent to a 5D MII audio system - not even close :-)
 
It will great to have the same audio quality as the Redone with the Pro IO module. Have made the decision to use the redone on projects due to the good audio on board. Necessary for many types of shoots.
 
Sebastian. You can send out a line level signal from you 744T direct to your Epic. In the menu of the 744T you can attenuate the signal for the line level outputs upto -40db. Try about - 25 db and then adjust your signal via the pots. You dont need a separate attenuator. The sound quality was very good. For the time being turn off the limiter on the Epic. I am sure they will sort it out later but for the time being you will hear the limiter kicking in and out.
 
i got very good sound today running stereo mic set up through a SD mix pre. I had a local audio dealer make up some cables for the XLR to 1/8 mini. I got good clean sound, no hum. It wasn't a great recording environment and the mics were just OK (rode NT5) but everything worked just fine. BTW does anyone have a favorite cardioid condenser mic pair that they like for stereo xy set ups?
 
As both a sound mixer and a camera person (NOT on the same jobs, unless absolutely unavoidable), who has worked with Red One and Epic, I note that the onboard audio of neither is as good as can be recorded elsewhere.
I do try to make sure to get a reference signal to the camera, but this is intended for "dailies" or "offline" use, with a second system sound recording used as a deliverable.

With both cameras, I have been using a wireless hop (usually a sennheiser g2, sometimes a lectrosonics digital hybrid link).

On the Epic, I consider the Wooden Camera A box to be a very reliable interface, which I think has resistors in line to help match the line signal to the form that the plugs on an Epic and Scarlet use on the camera. Their mini pins are wired in a non-universal way... and it's a crapshoot as to whether your basic xlr-3.5mm cable is appropriately wired... it is indeed possible to find some that do work, but the A-Box is ergonomically better for most camera operators to deal with.

On Red One, the Red mini to standard xlr cables work fine..

However.... Recording to a camera directly is best suited for documentary production of two track audio.
If you are recording drama, with multiple characters, or with challenging audio environments, then use an actual sound recording package and tools..
and synchronize in post..

To do otherwise is the sonic equivalent of shooting your picture on the RED, but only using the HD output from your videotap to finish your project's image...

You are leaving opportunities for better quality signal to noise, isolation and sound finish out of your deliverables..
 
Hi Guys

First off, I'm NOT a sound specialist and always bring in dedicated sound people whenever possible, however I do on occasion need to handle audio personally. I'll be using a Sound Devices 302 mixer which will connect to our Epic via a Wooden Camera A Box.

Can any audio pros give me pointers on how to milk the very best sound out of this when connecting to the Epic? I gather switching off Epic's audio limiter is a good starting point?

Help and tips greatly appreciated.

Best wishes

Scott
 
Double system is of course the professional way to do it, but I've been working to get some usable audio on the Epic as well for dailies, etc... I found that a -50db pad (cause there's lots of head room on the Epic settings) I had put in some xlr to mini jack cables at Coffey Sound in LA helps turn the mic to line level since Epic only handles mic input. Yes, limiter off and beware of running the xlr audio in cable over other power sources/stingers. Not ideal, but can be acceptable from time to time.
 
EDIT:
Try lavs hardwired to the 302, mic level cable out to A-box..
send test tone at -20db
record test tone... set levels while listening to the tone..
try to set the tone at just below 50% scale of meter on camera LCD...
if you dont see the meter lines moving when you have dialog, you are not recording..
consider at least running a Tascam dr7 or dr8 plugged into the 1/8" output (i think its a tape out) from the 302 as a backup..
use a clapper style slate if you do record double system.
If you can not lav your actors, use a hypercardioid mic instead of a shotgun and get it as close as you possibly can.. it will reject more fan noise than the shotgun mic would..

GOOD LUCK!
 
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Still, while waiting for Pro i/o module and even when available it is highly necessary to use a line level input on the brain alone, could you do that ?
it is not an issue of space in the brain. I just come from a concert where they could only feed us with line level and I was vey annoyed
 
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