Selling Scarlet

[Robert Ruffo New]

It's probably because the landscape has changed so drastically since Scarlet's launch -- 4k (and raw) can be had for quite cheap these days, and the accessories and media for the alternatives are non-proprietary and generally much more affordable too (picture quality is more than acceptable as well).

If you're buying a used Scarlet now just to upgrade, you may as well wait for a new Scarlet-Dragon (with 1 year warranty) or cut to the chase and get an Epic, hence no consistent market for used Scarlets.

4K RAW, in practical data rates, cannot be had for cheap from anyone, and really only Red cameras provide this via patented R3D technology. Media is not really cheap when you have to buy tons of it, and store hundreds of terrabytes of data for every project. With no OLPFs and very harsh highlight rolloff, BM cameras have rather poor image quality, "more than acceptable" only if you have very low standards.

 

[Brian Merlen]

well canon and sony use that word "raw" too, but kelvin is actually burnt in...I'm just curious if BMC burns in that parameter or not...

As for Red being a money pit I'd say that depends how fast you can get your ROI. At least with Red most parts carry over, for years most other competitors have tried to ensure few parts would carry over, and seemed to go out of the way to rerelease the same sensor, with slight spec increases as well. I think Red is a reaction to that milk the customers model. Yes the upgrades cost money, but compared to Sony, Canon, Phantom, or Arri look how well they have preserved the ecosystem of r3d and dealt with on set issues. They have constantly tried to improve the product. Phantom released like 50 models before they even started marketing it and engineering it as broadcast camera. The big guys switch formats and codecs, just to switch formats and codecs it seems. Sony releases new lens mounts over and over, but no one wants them.

So your definition of money pit can hinge on lots of things. Maybe your right and this whole thing flops for me, bit I'd just sell it and finance an Amira or something else I think would book, an Alexa 4k in 2020. I don't want to give up the owner op game yet, if I learn my lesson on the money pit I want it to be one I won't forget

 

[Cory Harrison]

well canon and sony use that word "raw" too, but kelvin is actually burnt in...I'm just curious if BMC burns in that parameter or not...

It does not. When recording raw white balance is just metadata.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Well there seems to be some market for US sellers selling their cameras to other countries since RED products tend to cost a bit more in other countries due to pricing and exchange rates. Besides that I would expect you'll be very lucky to get $6500-7000 for a Scarlet with EF mount and side SSD since Scarlet dragon is right on the horizon and if you subtract the upgrade cost from a new Scarlet you will see that buying a used Scarlet body (brain+mount+ssd) for $7200 and upgrading for $9500 costs the same as buying a new Scarlet Dragon, but leaves you with only a 90 day warranty instead of 1 year and will likely take longer to get you a Dragon since new Scarlet Dragon buyers are prioritized over upgraders (a big change in RED strategy). And then on top of that, if you want the Scarlet to be in your name it costs another $500 for transfer of ownership plus $750 for a recertification and 90day warranty (I think?).

Basically assume your used camera is worth about 30-40% of what it would cost to buy it new right now.

 

[Prince Bagdasarian]

Noah, does that mean you recently sold your scarlet for $6k? Lol :nono:

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

You should be able to get $7950 for Brain - Side SSD - EOS Mount

Somewhere in that ball park

10k for a basic working kit

If you buy new tax must be considered and the wait time if your in a rush

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Noah, does that mean you recently sold your scarlet for $6k? Lol :nono:

No, but I didn't get $8k for it and that seems pretty unrealistic. It seems to be a buyers market for used scarlets now. Unless you are actually selling your camera, you can dream all day about what it may still be worth, but getting the price you want for it is another story. I'm sure local markets vary a bit as well.

 

[D Anderson]

No, but I didn't get $8k for it and that seems pretty unrealistic. It seems to be a buyers market for used scarlets now. Unless you are actually selling your camera, you can dream all day about what it may still be worth, but getting the price you want for it is another story. I'm sure local markets vary a bit as well.

There are LOTS of dreamers when it comes to used RED kit prices.

 

[Al Lougher]

I just got about 50% back of what I put into my kit. And it was hardly used.

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

There's dreamers when they buy into a system and when they sell out. Its part of learning I guess.

Its an expensive habit to be a red owner. Having a killer client status and disposable income is key to lead the pack. Allot of peeps get stuck with their camera its really hard to let go unless you need to.

There's gonna be allot of cameras floating around cause they sold so many. Hell there's early adopters who have R1 and didn't even bother to go Epic; they're happy its paid for within 3 years or less and making full profit since they've owned it for 6-8 years.

Or do you always want to drive the newest car so your investing by leasing every upgrade or camera announcement. The guys who do well usually own 3 full kits that way if one camera falls flat you can sell it before its too late, use the other two to shoot and fall back on.

There's gonna be more tech its gonna get cheaper with time even though it takes longer than we'd like.

In 2008 I was convinced I would own a Scarlet S35 that did 5K and those specs aren't being promised until the 2nd revision of Scarlet 6 years later. Yea I guess I've been drinking the kool aid for awhile now come to think of it. If anything Red has raised their prices and given us less specs and we still act super stoked about it. I don't get it.

If I could do it all again I'd save up or get a loan for an Alexa then upgrade to XT for RAW. I have a feeling the new Amira may suffer Scarlet syndrome since you'll be able to get an Alexa for a little bit more from a producers stand point. At the same time I think it'll do well for news and documentaries.

Average Epic Owner Op under 30 years of age will go out with their kit for $500 a day for commercial work. Features are even less and then you bump down to a weekly rate which is low and long hours. If you do the math return on investment maybe slower than you expect. I have some friends who paid their kit after 3 shows less than a year others are still paying it off, a few have talked to me about selling it. I guess it all depends where you'll fall. Make friends with a owner op work with him enough and RESPECT his gear chances are you can use it at good hoomie rate.

 

[Jess Matney]

No expert by any means. From what I've seen you're looking at 8,500 used and new 12ish.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

No expert by any means. From what I've seen you're looking at 8,500 used and new 12ish.

Looks like that kit new is more like $14k

 

[Brian Wicens]

Looks like that kit new is more like $14k

This is why she stated she wasn't an "expert".

IMHO, I'd say it's worth $10,500 used, at the least.

What people are quick to forget is all the accessories sitting on that Scarlet brain are interchangeable...devalue the camera itself all you like, the rest of those pieces still hold their weight. Ultimately, any seller looking to get out of the RED market, should sell the brain separate from all DSMC accessories.


Aside from that, I'm really impressed at the amount of FUD being spread through this thread. The Scarlet is still the best bang for buck on the 4K market. You will not get comparable image quality/RAW in any of the other competitors, and although a few can hold a flame, R3D data rates blow everything else clear out.

The only true contender at the moment is the GH4, (until Blackmagic gets their head out of the sand) and while an M43 mount, solutions are quickly being made to allow versatility. (speedbooster) Seeing as it has 96fps at 1080p, the Scarlet really loses some ground with it's "high-speed" capabilities at 1K.

Scarlet should be given the same allowances of the RED ONE; 4.5K Widescreen and 120fps at 2K. While I understand it would virtually condemn R1 users, we're nearly several years past. At this point, there is a much more substantial market of Scarlet owners that are taking the brunt of upcoming technology.

Then again, perhaps RED is planning to cut the life of the Scarlet-X, you know, Dragon sensor, and all.

Regardless, RED seems to have an opportunity to capture the pro-sumer market, either in firmware, or price.

 

[Michael Hastings]

snip:
BMCC can shoot RAW but no one can afford storage for it. Better off shooting Red. ProRes is your best bet and what everyone shoots on when it comes to BMCC. They're great camera's for the money; can't beat it.

Why do you say no one can afford to shoot BMCC raw? Certified 240gig drives for BMCC are $159 at tiger direct vs $1450 for a 240 Redmag (even after the recent major price drop - was $2500). Even if BMCC is 5 times the data the drives are 1/9th the price and 3 terabyte drives for storage are dirt-cheap - like $110 each.

IMHO, I'd say it's worth $10,500 used, at the least.

How many would you like at that price ? ;-)

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

I'll just just go into it...

Sensors:

f55: 8.9MP Super 35mm CMOS Image Sensor


C500: 8.8 Mp Super 35mm-Size CMOS Sensor

Red Scarlet: 14 MEGAPIXEL MYSTERIUM-X

Color Space:


f55 is up to 12-bit XAVC 4K internally, I'll guess and say 10-bit export
C500 exports 10-bit(8-bit internally)


Red Scarlet is 4k RAW up to 16-bit internally(10-bit export)


The lower quality is fine for broadcast TV, but if it's a theatrical release or even BlueRay, I think you'd see a difference.

IMHO, it'll be Canon/Sony Owners that will be seeing the largest hit from BlackMagic sales.

 

[Stephen Williams]

I'll just just go into it...

Sensors:

f55: 8.9MP Super 35mm CMOS Image Sensor


C500: 8.8 Mp Super 35mm-Size CMOS Sensor

Red Scarlet: 14 MEGAPIXEL MYSTERIUM-X

Color Space:


f55 is up to 12-bit XAVC 4K internally, I'll guess and say 10-bit export
C500 exports 10-bit(8-bit internally)


Red Scarlet is 4k RAW up to 16-bit internally(10-bit export)


The lower quality is fine for broadcast TV, but if it's a theatrical release or even BlueRay, I think you'd see a difference.

IMHO, it'll be Canon/Sony Owners that will be seeing the largest hit from BlackMagic sales.

You need to do a test between the 3 cameras, the F55 has an incredibly low noise floor, which for many people is important.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

You need to do a test between the 3 cameras, the F55 has an incredibly low noise floor, which for many people is important.

the facts don't lie. obviously a 14MP sensor is different than a 8.9MP sensor...Sony is just crunching the blacks.

Talking to Sony/Canon people like talking to a wall. ....so many excuses to why. "my computer/editor doesn't like RAW"(well get a real NLE, not FCP7, idiot), "Red isn't reliable"(yeah, Fincher and and Peter Jackson has special cameras that don't break down, but yours does, lier)

Noise Floor? it's just a high contrast level!

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

Jeff...

Scarlet does not use the full 14MP it may aswell be a 8MP sensor unless you use 5K for timelapse.


Michael yea the BMCC does have stupid cheap Media but Scarlet will do better on a tight Hard Drive budget.

BMCC: 2.5K fits about 30 minutes of 24p video on a 256 GB solid state disk
Scarlet: 4K FF 6:1 is about 90 minutes of 24fps on a 256GB Red Mag

Thats a huge difference.

I can't stand cheap producers that never want to buy drives. I've only dealt with it once but they're out there. Allot of Micro Budgets start at $1500 for their harddrive budgets and on many occasions we double it especially if its a noob Director that never cuts and a DP that rolls both cams at all times at 5:1.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

hey Cid,


Lets do the math, because what Red is doing is windowing the sensor, I imagine that's what you're referring to.


5k = 1.3 crop
4k = 1.62 crop


5k = 14mp
4k =

it may aswell be a 8MP sensor

...(seems like bad math)...maybe 11 megapixel sensor?

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Jeff...

Scarlet does not use the full 14MP it may aswell be a 8MP sensor unless you use 5K for timelapse.


Michael yea the BMCC does have stupid cheap Media but Scarlet will do better on a tight Hard Drive budget.

BMCC: 2.5K fits about 30 minutes of 24p video on a 256 GB solid state disk
Scarlet: 4K FF 6:1 is about 90 minutes of 24fps on a 256GB Red Mag

Thats a huge difference.

I can't stand cheap producers that never want to buy drives. I've only dealt with it once but they're out there. Allot of Micro Budgets start at $1500 for their harddrive budgets and on many occasions we double it especially if its a noob Director that never cuts and a DP that rolls both cams at all times at 5:1.

Perhaps a better comparison is the BMPC 4k camera. 4k prores is twice the bitrate of Scarlet's highest bitrate. I'm not sure I follow on the hard drive budget, with drives costing about $30/TB these days, seems like you'd really have to roll all day every day to think about the cost of storage for BM cameras offsetting the much lower purchase/rental price...