Scratch?

[Simon Blackledge]

mine will be one of them! lol..

thanks Lucas..

S

 

[roryhinds]

great news Lucas.. I look forward to hearing the outcome.

 

[laguun]

So I guess this means you wouldn't buy from: Avid, Quantel, Autodesk, Filmlight, Digital Vision (Nucoda,) Cintel, Arri, DaVinci, Pandora... I could go on.

luki, i like you. that being said:

i have been working on the other, on "your" side of the fence luki.
nacho is a great guy (he is one, if not "the" scratch salesguy).

i also played the game to mislead consumers/customers.

assimilate doesn´t sell cpus, raids, vga-adapters and so on.
you never built computers.

you sell your software.
a cd-rom.

raids (500-500.000)
graphics (quadro 4500, 500-5.000)
are usual retail computer parts.

i have been offered, this ibc, scratch from 14.000 to 55.000$
for the same package. from your sales folks.
sales people of assimilate asked "what is your budget".

wasn´t different with discreet frost, discreet edit, 5d cyborg or colossus.

red doesn´t mislead consumers.
sony doesn´t mislead consumers.
panasonic doesn´t mislead consumers.
adobe doesn´t mislead consumers. (ok, they do here and there=
apple doesn´t mislead consumers.

we will probably go, after having looked at
- scratch
- quantel iQ/eQ/pablo
- pandora/pooge
- davinici
- sony
- mystika
- matrix

with iridas speedgrade.
they have their competetion product, "speedgrade HD", priced at 9.995.
http://iridas.com/

they consuted everyone at their booth.
for free.
for hours.

and they also said that they don´t like "sales thrashtalk" or unaware, underinformed customers.

their product is on osx, windows, linux.
they support raw for Arri, speedcam, vision 65, S.I. etc.

assimilate didn´t show -any- red raw or redcode at this ibc to us.
we asked, every day.

iridas is a nice, excellent product.
its scratch-level.
its 9.9995.
they will consult you with the hardware.
no matter if mac pro, dell optiplex or hp.

we will probably buy their product.
they offer a 30 day testride.

so, with all due respect: don´t explain why assimilate still isn´t able to have a list price for software.
remember:
you sell software. not systems.

iridas, dvs and some other company - they offer 4k.
some of them : in realtime
all have list prices.

i was disgusted by the price policy at -any- manufacturer who asked me to "send an email".

scratch was between 14 - 55.000$.
for the software. not for an system. the inicated pricerange was offered in one day.


so luki. how much is the software "scratch"?

p.s. i like the funcionality. even w/o redcode.

 

[laguun]

luki, if i am not wrong: scratch is at ~2-5 fps in 4k.

4k realtime is available from quantel. iridas (3d and stereo, go figure). filmlight. discreet.

and adobe CS3.
in 16 bit.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

luki, if i am not wrong: scratch is at ~2-5 fps in 4k.

4k realtime is available from quantel. iridas (3d and stereo, go figure). filmlight. discreet.

and adobe CS3.
in 16 bit.

That is false. With the right disk subsystem - SCRATCH is 24fps with 4K FullAp. We have customers doing it today.

Also - I would recommend that with ANY of the vendors (us included) that you bring your own files to test with. It is very easy to demo a "perfect solution."

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Lucas Wilson]

assimilate doesn´t sell cpus, raids, vga-adapters and so on. you never built computers. you sell your software. a cd-rom.

http://www.assimilateinc.com/apl.html

We spend a *lot* of time doing comprehensive testing of various systems so we know that we can stand behind what we sell the turnkey environments that we sell all the time.

raids (500-500.000)
graphics (quadro 4500, 500-5.000)
are usual retail computer parts.

Carburetor (500 - 5,000)
Transmission (200 - 4,000)
Crankshaft (500 - 5,000)

It's not the parts, it's how you put them together. (see APL site above)

i have been offered, this ibc, scratch from 14.000 to 55.000$ for the same package. from your sales folks. sales people of assimilate asked "what is your budget".

That's a valid range depending on modules. That's not misleading - just facts. We only sell one package - SCRATCH. So - yes - "SCRATCH" can have many prices for the "same package." It's all in how the modules come together. I've sold SCRATCH solutions that cost $12K and $300K. It's not because we're trying to screw anyone, it's because individual needs really are that different. A laptop with SCRATCH in an onset configuration is a whole lot different than a 2K-stereo-capable SAN with a full Finishing bundle. What is so hard to understand about that?

red doesn´t mislead consumers.
sony doesn´t mislead consumers.
panasonic doesn´t mislead consumers.
adobe doesn´t mislead consumers. (ok, they do here and there=
apple doesn´t mislead consumers.

If you believe we misled you, I truly apologize. But the prices they gave you at the booth were correct, and reflect different modular configurations, and I stand by that.

we will probably go, after having looked at
- scratch
- quantel iQ/eQ/pablo
- pandora/pooge
- davinici
- sony
- mystika
- matrix

with iridas speedgrade. they have their competetion product, "speedgrade HD", priced at 9.995. http://iridas.com/

Sounds like you guys have done a ton of review. And if that is the right package for you, more power to you... SCRATCH certainly is not right for everyone.

assimilate didn´t show -any- red raw or redcode at this ibc to us. we asked, every day.

To be honest, we did not get our RED demo system working until the 2nd day - hardware idiocy on our part. But starting on the 2nd day, we had one system in our suite completely dedicated to showing REDCODE and RED demos, and had demos booked wall-to-wall throughout the remainder of the show. If you are still interested in taking a look, let me know and I can arrange it.

iridas is a nice, excellent product. its scratch-level. its 9.9995.

SpeedgradeHD is limited to HD resolution. Do you think that is an accurate comparison?

remember: you sell software. not systems.

Sorry laguun, but that simply isn't true. The vast majority of the quotes we do and the SCRATCH systems we sell are just that - turnkey systems with partners we work very hard with to determine compatibility and reliability.

i was disgusted by the price policy at -any- manufacturer who asked me to "send an email".

Bummer. I do hope you are happy and successful with whatever system you choose...

scratch was between 14 - 55.000$. for the software. not for an system. the inicated pricerange was offered in one day. so luki. how much is the software "scratch"?

If I haven't explained how we do things and why well enough by now, I'm not sure I ever can.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[roryhinds]

I don't understand how Scratch has different price points. Surely its the same software modules that make up the package and the hardware can change for functionality.

The RED One is a set price and doesn't change according to your budget.

We all know you can run Final Cut Pro on a Laptop or on a Mac Pro with AJA etc and those two systems will have different power but the cost of Final Cut Pro is the same regardless what you run it on.

Sure Apple has recommended hardware to achieve the power you need but the cost remains the same regardless of what you want to use FCP for.

 

[GlennChan]

Do you want a viewfinder? The LCD screen too? The RAW port? Even Red is modular and has different pricing.

2- This thread... has really gone off the rails.

 

[Damien Molineaux]

...

The thing about home cooking is that the easy stuff is easy. The hard stuff never tastes as good as a chef... uness you spend a loooooonnnnng time practicing, and suffer through manu failures. You have no idea how long I've been trying to make a bouillibaise that tastes as good as the one Le Petit Cafe makes on Colorado in Santa Monica.

(I'll take any analogy and twist it for my own use... )

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

That would be "bouillabaisse" ! I'll teach you if you teach me to master Scratch...

Cheers,
Damien

 

[vsv]

I want to know difference between SpeedGrade DI with DualStream Stereoscopic Module(from 29950 EUR)
http://www.iridas.com/products/ and SCRATCH 4K 3D (price is BIG secret ?).

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Luki

I suspect that a version of scratch that limited to REDCODE (OR RED raw) on input would be a way of assimilate offering Red customers a better price as many are not facilities...

Other file input options would limit at HD... A RED or HD system..

This would allow assimilate to offer Red customers a product that can do red work for a lower price point...

I have no interest in doing DI/gradeing work for other people and therefore could not justify more than a $40k spend on a station.. (including software,panel, storage, and CPU/GPU)..

what do you think?.. You have potential to make a lot of sales.. Limit 1 feature (2k 4k other than redcode input) and sell it to this needy market (red)..

Michael

 

[vsv]

Do you want a viewfinder? The LCD screen too? The RAW port? Even Red is modular and has different pricing.

2- This thread... has really gone off the rails.

When i go to shop i want to see prices for products.

Make table like this
"Product Feature and Comparison Guide"
http://cineform.com/products/default.htm

...and sell more :biggrin:

 

[Simon Blackledge]

Just Redcode would not work.. at some point you'll want to bring gfx in or export for some vfx.. so you need to re-import.. and you can't.. unless of course you can go back to redcode-RGB if that appears...

S

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Just Redcode would not work.. at some point you'll want to bring gfx in or export for some vfx.. so you need to re-import.. and you can't.. unless of course you can go back to redcode-RGB if that appears...

S

That is why I sugested up to HD input as well (I understand it needs more though... )

I might not have suggested the right way of doing this but a compliment to Red rather than a full 2k/4k cin/dpx film pipline tool would work for me....

Michael

 

[roryhinds]

why not be like RED and don't disable features on your products.

Resolution is always increasing and look at Photoshop it can handle any resolution without charging more if you wanted to work at 4k.

Surely working at high resolution is all Hardware dependent.

Yes the RED package is modular but the prices are set. They don't charge Larry more for his RED ONe body just because he wants to shoot commercials.

Bottom line is Scratch is a great tool and we all want to use it in various setups working on HD, 2k or 4k or 12k when it comes. Which should just be a matter of hardware choices and budgets.

If Scratch was more in line with RED pricing I think most RED buyers would have a Scratch.

 

[roryhinds]

I'd say take out the collaborative modules aimed at large corporations with many scratch artists, things like shots notes and remote view.

Have a scratch that is aimed at the single independent artist without the features needed for team work.

They could have 2 versions of Scratch. One for the indy artist and one for the large team.

 

[M Most]

I'd say take out the collaborative modules aimed at large corporations with many scratch artists, things like shots notes and remote view.

Have a scratch that is aimed at the single independent artist without the features needed for team work.

They could have 2 versions of Scratch. One for the indy artist and one for the large team.

You really don't seem to understand what Lucas has been trying to tell you.

Professionals and do-it-yourselfers require vastly different levels of support. Assimilate provides professional level support for its users and that is one reason the product is as solid as it is. It is also why they can add and change things fairly quickly for a complex program. Their market is their market. They don't really want to become Apple. They have no need to market a cut rate product - one which would ultimately diminish the worth of their professional product in a lot of people's eyes - just to gain a few hundred seats at a cheap price and a lot more support headaches. What you seem to really want is for a company that's producing a very good product at a very fair price to suddenly give it away cheap so you can have it. That's the bottom line. But it doesn't (and shouldn't) work that way.

As for the argument that Red has a "set price" compared to the modular approach of Assimilate, that's complete nonsense. You can have a Red package for $17.5K (the body only), or you can have a Red package for $50K (the body and all the accessories and glass). With Scratch, you can have a Scratch system for $10K (base software license and a laptop), or you can have a Scratch system for $120K (base software, dual head, scaffolds, media layer, compositing options, high end workstation, high end dual link HD-SDI video card, additional card for 3D capabilities, ultra high speed disk array with lots of storage). I don't see the conceptual difference here. In the professional world, there are always base versions of products - which very few professionals buy - and fully optioned out versions that do everything you need to satisfy the clients you serve. That's the same whether you're buying a DI finishing system or a Red camera.

 

[conrad gaunt]

Amateur economics. Lesson 1.
The point at which supply and demand cross, when prices/sales are plotted on a graph, is known as the equilibrium price. It may not be the price that maximizes profit per unit sold but will maximize overall sales revenue. Thats the theory. If your overall market is small or specialist (like for scratch probably), companies probably can`t use this model, and economies of scale for them will be smaller too. Hence higher prices. Then theres the need to update technology related products regularily, hardware and software, research and development, paying skilled people (technology companies are normally only as good as the sum of their staffs skill base) .. I`m not defending prices, only realising the need for companies to make profit, else dissolve into history, and planned/communist economies are only good at military development generally speaking, normally at the expense of food and other stuff.. Now about my scratch discount.. (only kidding)

 

[roryhinds]

From Lucas's post it sounded like the pricing varies on who is purchasing and how they will use the system.

I am well aware of there being different levels of RED camera configurations and these are based on set prices for the parts.

Assimilate charge extra for support. They can change things fast with their software because they are a small team, much like RED can.

I'm not asking them to sell Scratch at cut rate prices - just at a price which is more in-line with RED which I would say are not cheap.

The hardware needed to make a low powered system is not that expensive, and the hardware for a high end 3d system is reasonable if you need that sort of a system.

With RED's REDCODE RAW working in 4k is now very easy and affordable and I don't see how Assimilate would lose out if they offered a dedicated REDCode Raw workstation at a price similar to the investment of the camera system.

 

[donatello b]

"not asking them to sell Scratch at cut rate prices - just at a price which is more in-line with RED "

it is in line with RED ... a top of the line complete RED system with master primes primes and Ang primo zooms = 250K ... or you can get a basic Red system with still primes and zooms for under 35k ...

so basic system = FCS2.
it has everything you need up to 2k at a great price - it doesn't do every thing Scratch does in RT but it is alot less $$$ ... you want top of the line everything it going to cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ...