Scratch?

[Lucas Wilson]

I asked for the costs of the SCRATCH™ Data-Centric Workflow Solution™ at the Assimilate IBC stand and the representative woman told me approximately about 100.000 Euro or 137.000 US$ for the 4K (hardware+software).

And this is why I try very hard to avoid pricing discussions online.

The hardware necessary for 4K RGB is probably around 100.000 Euro, because we're talking about a disk subsystem that can support 1.2GB/s sustained reads over the length of a feature. That is not cheap, no matter how you slice it. The cost in this particular case is mostly hardware.

Guys - SCRATCH is a modular software system that runs on essentially commodity hardware. Depending on which modules you put together, the prices vary by tens of thousands of dollars. The hardware you put together for it could be anything from a laptop for just doing conforms, or a 4K SAN for realtime 4K RGB work... so that varies from about US$3K to about US$150K. SCRATCH and DI systems are not Apple Store kind of items where there is mass commodity pricing. Other than a personal preference I have of not talking about pricing on a board that isn't mine, it's a question of almost everybody having slightly different needs and therefore different list prices.

And... as always... contact me at lucas at assimilateinc dot com for specific discussions.

Lucas
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Lucas Wilson]

The way to handle it is post the minimum price on their website. Entry level Scratch workstations start at "$" and offer the ability to do this... many different configurations to suit all needs are available, please email or call and Janice our blonde bombshell techno diva stripper will configure your system lke it's never been configured before. <<-optional.. probably work in LA or Texas though...

For a commodity product, absolutely. Not for us. By the way... while we've been discussing this over the past few days, I have probably received 2 dozen private emails from the reduser community about pricing... and have answered all of them. : )

I should get a consulting fee for this post.

No problem... I'll figure it into a discount on the purchase of your first SCRATCH system.

Lucas
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Joel Kaye]

For a commodity product, absolutely. Not for us. By the way... while we've been discussing this over the past few days, I have probably received 2 dozen private emails from the reduser community about pricing... and have answered all of them. : )

Awesome. And how does that rate with the previous week?

What's different?

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Awesome. And how does that rate with the previous week?

What's different?

Hey Joel... I understand you disagree with our pricing discussion philosophy. And that's fine. : )

But I feel like I've explained things pretty adequately and am done talking about it for now. You know how to get in touch with me if you want to seriously discuss pricing.

Lucas
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Joel Kaye]

Hey Joel... I understand you disagree with our pricing discussion philosophy. And that's fine. : )

OK I do have a compliment or two for you...

I think your post explaining that the range was from $3k to $150k and it was modular software was very helpful while remaining vague - like you like it.

It looks like you've got a very competitive product for real time 2K etc. based on your website. Looks like a great niche. You know where your profit comes from.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/347368/sales_advice_prospecting_high_income.html

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

And this is why I try very hard to avoid pricing discussions online.

The hardware necessary for 4K RGB is probably around 100.000 Euro, because we're talking about a disk subsystem that can support 1.2GB/s sustained reads over the length of a feature. That is not cheap, no matter how you slice it. The cost in this particular case is mostly hardware.

Guys - SCRATCH is a modular software system that runs on essentially commodity hardware. Depending on which modules you put together, the prices vary by tens of thousands of dollars. The hardware you put together for it could be anything from a laptop for just doing conforms, or a 4K SAN for realtime 4K RGB work... so that varies from about US$3K to about US$150K. SCRATCH and DI systems are not Apple Store kind of items where there is mass commodity pricing. Other than a personal preference I have of not talking about pricing on a board that isn't mine, it's a question of almost everybody having slightly different needs and therefore different list prices.

And... as always... contact me at lucas at assimilateinc dot com for specific discussions.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

In a talk at IBC show with Marie Buckley, the official ASSIMILATE contact and stand representative.
I said that SCRATCH 4K solution as I heard could cost approximately 100.000 Euro and she replied: "Yeah, about and it depends on hardware..."
After that I would say SCRATCH is not for an individual user like me.
The first is too expensive solution and the second is not running on Mac OS X.
I stick with "Apple Store kind of items" like FCP, Color, Shake, Motion, Soundtrack Pro
and look to get more hardware like JLCooper Eclipse (about 10.000 Euro), Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (2.895 Euro) etc...
Than I could confirm even 2K film comfortably at home. Maybe it takes more space and longer time to render all in FCP
but is more like a home cooking, takes more time to prepare but a quality of food is better or even excellent.
Fast food is not good for health as we know well.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

I emailed luki and he was very gracious. A really great guy.

A big strength of Reduser is that we are a group of wide skills and budgets. This strength is not so good for someone like Luki. Quite frankly, I can't even dream of Scratch until I start making piles of money. I'm splitting Red with my Dad (and the bank) just to afford the $40k package I'm putting together. So the trouble for him is to sift through those of us who are barely buying Red, and those of us that could easily buy 5 Reds fully loaded.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I am sure that Luki is a great guy.
Also I can confirm that Marie Buckley is a beautiful woman and a nice person.

 

[Mark B.]

When a company refuses to post their product prices, it's typically because they have a product/service that could easily be made and sold for a lower price by someone else. In other words, secretive companies try to hide prices so that their potential competitors don't get wind of what is probably a severe market imbalance.

On the flip side, a company that is offering a good deal will typically slather their prices all over the place because they know the competition is going to have a hard time beating it.

I wouldn't want to buy from a company that hides their prices, even if I could afford it, which I can't.

 

[Rob Lohman]

When a company refuses to post their product prices, it's typically because they have a product/service that could easily be made and sold for a lower price by someone else. In other words, secretive companies try to hide prices so that their potential competitors don't get wind of what is probably a severe market imbalance.

On the flip side, a company that is offering a good deal will typically slather their prices all over the place because they know the competition is going to have a hard time beating it.

I wouldn't want to buy from a company that hides their prices, even if I could afford it, which I can't.

I think you will find that Assimilate is very competitive with their prices. Have you tried talking & getting prices from other big iron systems? I'm confused how you can say you can't afford it when you don't know their price. Otherwise I would advice you to look at systems like After Effects and Shake / Color. Sounds like that might be more up your alley.

Your comment about potential competitors is quite funny. They would only have to send an email to find out the pricing structure. Pretty hard to do, no?

Personally I think it would suit you if you respect Assimilate's way of doing business and kept the trash talk to yourself. Not sure why you're even responding if it's "outside your price range" (apparently).

Thank you,

 

[Poi Boy]

everyone is so touchy on this thread...call luki get a price, simple.
-A

 

[Lucas Wilson]

In a talk at IBC show with Marie Buckley, the official ASSIMILATE contact and stand representative.
I said that SCRATCH 4K solution as I heard could cost approximately 100.000 Euro and she replied: "Yeah, about and it depends on hardware..."
After that I would say SCRATCH is not for an individual user like me.

Sanjin,

Like I said - For a 4K RGB system, this is correct. There is a big, BIG difference between a setup capable of doing realtime 4K RGB and a system capable of doing 30MB/s (REDCODE RAW.)

The first is too expensive solution and the second is not running on Mac OS X.

Yes - a 4K RGB system is very expensive. But please be sure you know what specs you really need. Hardware is almost always the biggest delta in pricing a system. And as far as not running on OSX - I am running SCRATCH on Bootcamp with no issues... So if your problem is that you don't want to buy a new machine - that's cool. If your issue is that you don't want to reboot into XP becase you don't like it... well... I guess I can't help you then. :blink:

I stick with "Apple Store kind of items" like FCP, Color, Shake, Motion, Soundtrack Pro but is more like a home cooking, takes more time to prepare but a quality of food is better or even excellent. Fast food is not good for health as we know well.

The thing about home cooking is that the easy stuff is easy. The hard stuff never tastes as good as a chef... uness you spend a loooooonnnnng time practicing, and suffer through manu failures. You have no idea how long I've been trying to make a bouillibaise that tastes as good as the one Le Petit Cafe makes on Colorado in Santa Monica.

(I'll take any analogy and twist it for my own use... )

Lucas
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin,

Like I said - For a 4K RGB system, this is correct. There is a big, BIG difference between a setup capable of doing realtime 4K RGB and a system capable of doing 30MB/s (REDCODE RAW.)



Yes - a 4K RGB system is very expensive. But please be sure you know what specs you really need. Hardware is almost always the biggest delta in pricing a system. And as far as not running on OSX - I am running SCRATCH on Bootcamp with no issues... So if your problem is that you don't want to buy a new machine - that's cool. If your issue is that you don't want to reboot into XP becase you don't like it... well... I guess I can't help you then. :blink:



The thing about home cooking is that the easy stuff is easy. The hard stuff never tastes as good as a chef... uness you spend a loooooonnnnng time practicing, and suffer through manu failures. You have no idea how long I've been trying to make a bouillibaise that tastes as good as the one Le Petit Cafe makes on Colorado in Santa Monica.

(I'll take any analogy and twist it for my own use... )

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Thanks Luki, I believe you and probably you are right. I'll sent you an email.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

I wonder if Scratch might make sense for the low rent crowd (of which I am decidedly a member), if we can use it to buy us more grading time mixing time on scratch on our own systems with some time in a proper suite, which in addition to having all that storage will have proper monitoring, which is also essential and very expensive. So we could hire a colourist to sit with us and our mac pros to go through the film on Scratch and do a first grade working in RED RAW, then take the project file and RED RAW media into a proper facility to check every shot, make necessary changes and do a filmout.
Is that a workflow that would make sense?

Or to get away from my usual "do everything" stance (stupid), maybe there's room for that kind of workflow in a Post house. Like the Avid workflow: you sit in this room and it's $200 an hour, you sit in this room and it's $40.. Or perhaps colourists will buy Scratch and set up their own budget colouring setup, like many Editors have done in the last few years with FCP..?

 

[M Most]

I wonder if Scratch might make sense for the low rent crowd (of which I am decidedly a member), if we can use it to buy us more grading time mixing time on scratch on our own systems with some time in a proper suite, which in addition to having all that storage will have proper monitoring, which is also essential and very expensive. So we could hire a colourist to sit with us and our mac pros to go through the film on Scratch and do a first grade working in RED RAW, then take the project file and RED RAW media into a proper facility to check every shot, make necessary changes and do a filmout.
Is that a workflow that would make sense?

Not really. If you don't have proper monitoring, nothing you do is what you think it is. You're spending all of your time doing something that then has to basically be redone. Any reasonably good professional colorist should be able to do a relatively close match to selected stills in short order, so the "first pass" is something that goes pretty fast, given a good colorist in a professional environment.

I think a lot of people here have a very inaccurate idea of the time and cost factors involved in professional finishing. They seem to want to find shortcuts that are not really shortcuts, they're a lot of work for very little gain. It would be a good thing for a lot of people who have never actually taken a project to completion in a professional facility to do some homework by visiting a facility, showing some of their material, and rationally discussing what it would take to finish it properly and create needed deliverables. You might be surprised at what good partners post professionals can be.

 

[jbeale]

> If you don't have proper monitoring, nothing you do is what you think it is.

Hard to argue with that. I'm curious what the parameters of "proper monitoring" are though. Obviously a calibrated monitor is important, but there are software/hardware packages that can do this at quite reasonable prices. What is the resolution considered necessary for this type of work? I don't think there are any 4k monitors on the market, are there?

 

[Joel Kaye]

> I'm curious what the parameters of "proper monitoring" are though.

Mmost is right about visiting a post house if you can. That's a lot easier in LA or New York of course.

Color correcting is really about the final viewing environment. I know a pro that has a good consumer DLP, Plasma and CRT that he uses for proofing. If it looks good on all 3 he's happy because he's probably emulated most of what his viewers are seeing... DVD in that case. He's got access to the really expensive Sony HD CRT's too... but he's smart enough to know nobody else does.

Digital Projection could look a little different. Film out is another thing altogether and you're really gonna need some help there.

JVC has an awfully nice monitor for around $4 grand. They have a really nice projector for about $6,000.

http://www.dv.com/reviews/reviews_item.php?articleId=196602806

The real trick is when you start outputting to different formats and hardware for delivery... I think you'll need your post guys for that. There's no reason to own that gear unless you output A LOT.

Color correction I feel is different. If you personally want tight control of your look you will learn it. Between Shake and After Effects you can do an awful lot if you're zen at pulling mattes.

This topic is big but every RED owner is going to need to understand it.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

When a company refuses to post their product prices, it's typically because they have a product/service that could easily be made and sold for a lower price by someone else. In other words, secretive companies try to hide prices so that their potential competitors don't get wind of what is probably a severe market imbalance.

On the flip side, a company that is offering a good deal will typically slather their prices all over the place because they know the competition is going to have a hard time beating it.

I wouldn't want to buy from a company that hides their prices, even if I could afford it, which I can't.

So I guess this means you wouldn't buy from: Avid, Quantel, Autodesk, Filmlight, Digital Vision (Nucoda,) Cintel, Arri, DaVinci, Pandora... I could go on.

Your statement may be true for consumer and prosumer products where the COGs and Modular BOM pricing are clear and well understood. It is almost never true for the high-end, where customization is the norm, not the exception.

And at the end of the day - if somebody is serious about buying a product (which you have clearly stated you are not) then there is only so long that pricing can be hidden. Eventually, somebody has to write a check.

For whatever weird reason, people that are really interested in buying something are usually not afraid of calling a sales rep or a channel rep and asking about pricing. :tongue:


Lucas
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[M Most]

Mmost is right about visiting a post house if you can. That's a lot easier in LA or New York of course.

True. But there are solid, professional post houses - a number of them doing film work - in many other locations as well. Philadelphia, Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago, San Francisco, Seattle, Vancouver, Toronto, and, yes, Miami (where I am), as well as countless other locations inside and outside of the US and Canada.

Color correcting is really about the final viewing environment.

Quite true, and of course that depends on what you're planning in the way of deliverables.

Digital Projection could look a little different. Film out is another thing altogether and you're really gonna need some help there.

Even more true. Not only does the environment itself change the perception of what you're looking at, so does the size of the screen. A larger image in a dark room often leads you to different creative decisions than a smaller image on a monitor in a partially lit room. As you say, it's about the "final" viewing environment.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Fair enough, you are right of course, one needs to be able to see what one is doing.
I noticed at IBC that Apple's color app is able to display an image that is very close to the image displayed on the JVC monitors that they had. Close enough to finish in Color looking at your apple display, for loads of little low budget projects.
Now feature films, long form documentaries, or any "passion project" are of course a completely different story. And one will be inclined to spend what one can to make it perfect. Since RED produces flat images that must given a look by a colourist I worry that many of us will not be able to afford the much longer time the colourist will have to work on the project to finish the film. We not just colour timing film anymore, the grade is where the whole look of the film happens, and if we are in a tremendous hurry because we are spending enormous sums of money with every hour that passes, the temptation will be to just "make it look pretty". I've experienced that many times, where the clients don't really know what they can do or want and the there is loads of time pressure, so the colourist simply says "Do you want me to make it look pretty?" and of course most people say yes.. Leading to the same thing over and over again: Saturation, perhaps a bleach bypass, "film look". And the result is that it looks like a cartoon of a film, like an advert..
That's why I'm searching for a workflow that would enable a proper creative dialogue with a colourist (I'm not saying that this never happens now people!), as the Director would with the DP, or the Production Designer, or the Editor..