Scratch on the new Macs?

[Gary]

I used a Scratch last year on a Boxx system. Questions were asked by many about Scratch being used on a Mac and we always heard the Mac Pro wasn't powerful enough like a the hot-rodded PCs. Do the new Macs that just came out now make it possible for Scratch?

Gary

 

[Shane Betts]

Not sure why you'd go there. You can build a PC box for a fraction of the cost of a Scratch seat and know it'll work - and with a graphics card with SDI, which the Mac can't offer.

 

[Gary]

It's not about money. Many people have asked before.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

I am also interested in this. I've ordered a new 8 core 2.93GHz Mac Pro that will be here on Monday. Thinking of putting in a NVIDIA Quadro® FX 5600 SDI and try Scratch out in bootcamp? I would like to build my coloring system around a Mac instead of a PC due to being able to use both Mac OS and Windows. Would this configuration be able to run Scratch without any issues?

 

[Rob Gardner]

Bettsy, when I priced this out it was just a little bit less than buying the finished kit with no assurance that it would work. What is your recipe? And did you do it?
Thanks
Rob Gardner

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Any reasons why the NVIDIA Quadro® FX 5600 SDI would not work realtime in bootcamp? I cannot purchase both a top end PC and a top end Mac. Given a choice between the two I have to get a Mac. Anyone with Scratch had a chance to play with the new Mac Pro's?

 

[Gary]

I asked this because last year we (Scratch users) were told the Macs did not have the horsepower to do what Scratch needed and the Boxx PC did. So maybe Lucas can just pop in here and say yes or no to the new Macs that just came out? I would like to stay in OSx for all my apps if possible.

Gary

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Yes... please Lucas or anyone from Scratch give us some heads up on this. I have been in contact with you guys about a license... knowing if the new mac pro's can do 2k without a hitch would give me the clarity I need to go ahead & secure the license.

 

[Barend Onneweer]

When we're talking about a typical Scratch workstation the software makes up the biggest part of the total cost by far.

And one reason for not running Scratch on OSX is the limited graphics driver support.

If you really want to stay OSX, look at Speedgrade XR.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

When we're talking about a typical Scratch workstation the software makes up the biggest part of the total cost by far.

And one reason for not running Scratch on OSX is the limited graphics driver support.

If you really want to stay OSX, look at Speedgrade XR.

That's why i intend to run Scatch in bootcamp. I don't think there is any other way to run Scratch currently on a Mac except for bootcamp. The cost of hardware is around 17.5k (including quado sdi card)... that is a significant amount and prevents me from buying 2 systems... one for Mac and one for PC. I only can afford one high end system and since I use a ton of OSX programs that system will have to be a Mac.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Yes... please Lucas or anyone from Scratch give us some heads up on this. I have been in contact with you guys about a license... knowing if the new mac pro's can do 2k without a hitch would give me the clarity I need to go ahead & secure the license.

Bootcamp is not officially supported by ASSIMILATE, and more importantly - the SDI drivers are *not* supported or endorsed by NVidia.

The reason is that the graphics drivers for Bootcamp are not "pure" NVidia drivers. They are Apple released drivers that introduce instability. SCRATCH is not a stable and reliable tool when running on Bootcamp. If you want to run SCRATCH on bootcamp with DVI only, then it will work as a test. Do not put productions on it. If you do SDI and system breaks, or graphics card dies - you are completely on your own, because:

1) You have invalidated your Apple hardware warranty by installing unapproved 3rd party cards.
2) NVidia does not support and will not warranty SDI cards on OSX.
3) ASSIMILATE does not support the OSX software install.

So... sure, you can try it. But if you actually try and buy a SCRATCH license for a Mac system, I will fly to you and tattoo "Caveat Emptor" on your forehead while you're signing the PO. ; )

Lucas
-----
VP of Tattoos and Primitive Rituals
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Bootcamp is not officially supported by ASSIMILATE, and more importantly - the SDI drivers are *not* supported or endorsed by NVidia.

The reason is that the graphics drivers for Bootcamp are not "pure" NVidia drivers. They are Apple released drivers that introduce instability. SCRATCH is not a stable and reliable tool when running on Bootcamp. If you want to run SCRATCH on bootcamp with DVI only, then it will work as a test. Do not put productions on it. If you do SDI and system breaks, or graphics card dies - you are completely on your own, because:

1) You have invalidated your Apple hardware warranty by installing unapproved 3rd party cards.
2) NVidia does not support and will not warranty SDI cards on OSX.
3) ASSIMILATE does not support the OSX software install.

So... sure, you can try it. But if you actually try and buy a SCRATCH license for a Mac system, I will fly to you and tattoo "Caveat Emptor" on your forehead while you're signing the PO. ; )

Lucas
-----
VP of Tattoos and Primitive Rituals
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

Thanks for your response Lucas. I was under the impression that bootcamp drivers for the SDI card would be the same drivers from Nvidia. I wasn't aware that the graphic drivers are not "pure". I can only hope that Apple or Nvidia gets their ass in gear and solve this problem... quickly... by NAB would be awesome.

What happens when you attempt to install the NVIDIA drivers directly? Is it that the NVIDIA drivers can be installed natively in bootcamp but there is an Apple interpretation layer? Can you expand on what you mean when you say its not "pure".

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Thanks for your response Lucas. I was under the impression that bootcamp drivers for the SDI card would be the same drivers from Nvidia. I wasn't aware that the graphic drivers are not "pure". I can only hope that Apple or Nvidia gets their ass in gear and solve this problem... quickly... by NAB would be awesome.

What happens when you attempt to install the NVIDIA drivers directly? Is it that the NVIDIA drivers can be installed natively in bootcamp but there is an Apple interpretation layer? Can you expand on what you mean when you say its not "pure".

I don't know exactly what it is - but the "official" driver for Bootcamp is from Apple, not NVidia, and it is a different driver. I don't know exactly how it is different, but it's different enough that SDI is simply not supported at all, and SCRATCH has weird issues with the driver that don't exist on XP with the NVidia driver.

I would not expect to see this issue resolved anytime soon. It has been a known issue for several years now and both companies have bigger fish to fry. Apple is a gadget company now and I don't see how they can care much about doing custom work to support a product that would be about 1/10 of 1% of the Mac Pro market, which in turn is now less than half of Apple's total revenue. And NVidia had a reaalllly bad Q4 earnings call, and they are just doing everything they can to sell cards. Battling with Apple to allow their driver teams to do more work than they currently do is probably not high on the list of priorities. OEM deals for GeForce and Quadro are.

Not trying to be a killjoy, but that's reality.

Lucas

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Not trying to be a killjoy, but that's reality.

Lucas

Thanks for your input again. Too bad the only solution that seems practicable is for Apple to make Color more competitive to Scratch. Wish I had more money to buy a decent PC workstation... perhaps in a few months. Albeit I keep hoping that Apple will bring out a graphics hardware solution (I don't see how they can be competitive without one). You are right... dreams and reality are two different things... sometimes they merge and sometimes not.

 

[Gary]

Lucas,

My original question had nothing to do about bootcamp. I would not want bootcamp. Too much hassle rebooting back and forth. I am not sure how my original thread turned into a bootcamp discussion. Some of us had discussions last year about how some people were getting Scratch working on bootcamp.

I am asking about Scratch being made for OSx. Can you address the question as to whether Scratch could be written to now be run on the new Macs (not bootcamp)? How about the new ATI card they offer or are there any new nVidias? Are the new CPUs and Mac powerful enough now to have a Mac version of Scratch? Can an AJA at 2k work instead of the nVidia?

Gary

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Lucas,

My original question had nothing to do about bootcamp. I would not want bootcamp. Too much hassle rebooting back and forth. I am not sure how my original thread turned into a bootcamp discussion. Some of us had discussions last year about how some people were getting Scratch working on bootcamp.

I am asking about Scratch being made for OSx. Can you address the question as to whether Scratch could be written to now be run on the new Macs (not bootcamp)? How about the new ATI card they offer or are there any new nVidias? Are the new CPUs and Mac powerful enough now to have a Mac version of Scratch? Can an AJA at 2k work instead of the nVidia?

Gary

Hi Gary,

Oh - ok, sorry! Did not mean to hijack the thread! : )

Short answer is - a tremendous amount of our functionality has to do with SDI support via the NVidia SDI card. Apple does not support the NVidia SDI card. They simply don't have an approved driver for it, and you will invalidate your Apple warranty by just putting the SDI card into your Mac Pro.

So, until either Apple supports that card, or there is a competitive solution to NVidia that supports a GPU -> SDI fast pathway without having to go back through the host bus, the chances of getting SCRATCH on OSX are unfortunately zero.

Lucas

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Lucas,

My original question had nothing to do about bootcamp. I would not want bootcamp. Too much hassle rebooting back and forth. I am not sure how my original thread turned into a bootcamp discussion. Some of us had discussions last year about how some people were getting Scratch working on bootcamp.

I am asking about Scratch being made for OSx. Can you address the question as to whether Scratch could be written to now be run on the new Macs (not bootcamp)? How about the new ATI card they offer or are there any new nVidias? Are the new CPUs and Mac powerful enough now to have a Mac version of Scratch? Can an AJA at 2k work instead of the nVidia?

Gary

Sorry I thought your question had to do with bootcamp due to the unlikeliness of an OSX version of Scratch. But as Lucas said the problem is hardware with the lack of SDI support from nVidia/Apple. The more feasible solution is bootcamp support. I don't understand why this driver issue is such a big deal. They obviously make the cards... don't they want to sell more of them?

Lucas, if this driver issue was solved. How long would it take for assimilate to release an OSX version? Could it be done in less than a year?

 

[Gary]

Lucas,

Thank you for the reply. I understand. One last question, please. Do you think that the new Macs that just came out would be enough computer "if... if the nVidia SDI did work on those new Macs" ? Are they up there enough now like a Boxx would perform or are they still lacking horse power?

Thanx again for taking the time to help us understand.

Gary

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Are they up there enough now like a Boxx would perform or are they still lacking horse power?

Unclear. We have not done serious benchmarking on the dual CPU Nehalem systems yet. Apple paid Intel a disturbing amount of money to have the exclusive on that hardware until April. When the mobos are released to other vendors, our hardware partners will no doubt have some test results to post.

Lucas

 

[M Most]

I don't understand why this driver issue is such a big deal.

It's a big deal because Apple does not build generic, open PC systems. They build Macs. Just because they use the same CPU's doesn't mean they're suddenly building PC clones, even if their systems can run Windows. If you don't have generic PC hardware and a generic PC BIOS, you can't use generic PC drivers. And Apple systems have neither.

Lucas, if this driver issue was solved. How long would it take for assimilate to release an OSX version? Could it be done in less than a year?

Isn't that a bit like asking "if there were no foreclosures, would full economic recovery happen in less than 6 months?" It's a bit silly to use such conjecture, because there still are plenty of foreclosures, and the driver issue is not solved and shows no signs of being solved. That's what Lucas just tried to tell you.