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Schneider XENON FF vs Canon CN-E

For me the big differences are:

- The base design of the optics
- The mechanics on the lens
- The harmonious look/character to the series
- Aperture range
- Cost
- Optical Performance

In many ways the Schneider Xenon FF-Primes fulfill all of those. However, Duclos Lenses is now offering a PL conversion to the "EF only" Canon CN-Es. That won't be cheaper than $1K a lens, but it might be worth looking into if those are your chosen path.

The base optics of the Canon CN-E primes are in fact their EF counterparts. All with new coatings, often with one elements being different between their cousins. Both good and bad depending on where you land.

Mechanics are better on the Xenons overall. Especially the focus pull action. They are and will be mostly T2.1 when all the lengths are available, with the exception of the 18mm being T2.4.

This is more of a tough call these days. You have to look at your own budget and which glass you prefer based on it's look. Zeiss CP.2s, Canon CN-E, and Schneider Xenon FF-Primes are all relatively in the same bracket. Schneider to me is working out to be a classic looking T2-ish option that covers Dragon 6K and up to a bit beyond FF35. The Zeiss and Canon offerings are essentially the same as their still counterparts with better mechanies geared towards motion use. Though I do loathe the housing and pull on the CN-E, but that's a "me thing".

Don't ignore Zeiss though. That 15mm T2.9 is utterly gorgeous. The 135mm too. They do have some "strange" lenses in there though. This is more or less my issue as the CN-Es and CP.2s feel less like a complete set with a consistent look. But that is also a "me thing" I guess.
 
Stephane Marino said:
Thank you Phil for the complete analysis.
Speaking about the image they deliver is there one set that has more contrast, sharpness... I also read somewhere that the Xenon feel more cinematic. do you agree ?
Click to expand...

Thats hard to quantify and its so subjective as to what cinematic means. Also, it's great Schneider has a 95mm filter thread on the front. Here's a sample of a quick test with the 50mm Xenon.
https://vimeo.com/91956416
 
Stephane Marino said:
Thank you Phil for the complete analysis.
Speaking about the image they deliver is there one set that has more contrast, sharpness... I also read somewhere that the Xenon feel more cinematic. do you agree ?
Click to expand...


Feel is a hard thing to quantify. So I'll jump in with this.

All three options resolve approximately the same center field and across field. Though there's a few outstanding performers in there. Also there's one lens in the CP.2 range I'm not real fond of, but that's what the OTUS 55mm f/1.4 is for as it's pretty damn good.

I enjoy the pillowy out of focus image of the Schneider Xenon FF-Primes. They do tend to have a nice feel as focus is moved and lens draws. Likely why you've heard they are more cinematic overall. Also, all of these lenses are truly being designed as a consistent set, which is a big thing for me.

Zeiss tends to have the most overall contrast and that shows in their housing and coating design. If you want the punchiest image that's your answer, though it's only a subtle difference side by side.

The CN-Es are the best bet for faster aperture glass if that's what you're after. I actually quite like a couple of those lenses and use their still lens counter parts pretty often still. I just wish they had a different draw for motion work. Now that Duclos Lenses as of this month is offering their PL conversion I have a feeling we'll slowly see more sets of these around town. Honestly not having them in PL has been one of the biggest negatives when it comes to motion picture work and getting them adopted by productions or houses. That modification does effect their total purchase price though, however, decent for a set of super speed glass.

All have distinctly unique character and flare. That's going to be something you'll need to experience on a lens by lens basis.

Rent-ability has been Zeiss CP.2 land for a while as they have been available the longest. That's again because the CN-Es didn't have a PL Mount and it's too early for any good "mass data" on the Schneider Xenons just yet.

For me if this was a decision I was making literally today I'd go with the Schneider Xenon FF-Primes at T2.1. If your focus is fast glass a limited set of Canon CN-E Primes with the Duclos PL Modification is a pretty good way to go. Then I'd likely add the Zeiss 15mm T2.9 into the mix if I needed wider. There's a 135mm T2.1 Xenon on it's way and there might be an ultrawide maybe 1.5 years out.
 
Well, Phil has said it pretty much in a very elegant and eloquent way, but that is how I fill about the Schneider Xenon... And more.

Other then that, they have surpassed me at every corner, the 300 degree focus trow is simply beautifully smooth, and has proven fantastic for critical focus racking situations, love this lenses more and more, and will be very difficult to let them go when time comes to move to faster lenses again... :)

We'll continue using them on my next series of project, including some extreme landscaping a beauty work, and if all goes well even on my first feature, just love this glass, and so does Dragon M8... :)

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Also really like the Out of Focus.

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For me the Xenons have too much CA for their slower max speed. The Xenons have a great look but their CA is annoying. I'd personally go Zeiss CP.2's built with the 3 super speeds (35,50,85) as well as the 25mm t2.1, and 100mm CF t2.1 to round out the set (might go with the 135mm t2.1). If you need to go wider than 25 the 15mm t2.9 is a great lens, although a stop slower than the rest of your set...

I really like the overall look of the Schneiders, but it's not a full set (will be soon), the CA is annoying, but a good alternative and a cheaper priced option https://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/prices/XENON_FF_PRICE_LIST.pdf. I'd most likely completely avoid the Canon CNE's... If you don't need the faster speed of the CP.2 Super Speeds and the t2.1 speed is okay for you, then go Xenons. Just my $.02


Also, just keep in mind breathing. The CN-E's and CP.2's breath quite a bit because they are rehoused stills lenses whereas the Schneiders have extremely minimal to none.
 
Matt, I used to be obsess with Chromatic Aberration, in all it's range, and was one of the main reasons why I purchased my first set of Master Primes...

However, I have changed a lot since then, and don't get hung up as much as I once did on CA as well as other small character showed by any particular given lens.

I however do still very much care about the design, the focus pull, the organic fill and look, the weight, the conformity of design amongst the set, and so on, and the Schneider Xenon do extremely well on all of this, and CA is not as bad either, is there, as it is in every other single lens in thuds planet, amore in some , less in other, way less to almost none existing on others... But... At what price?
 
I own a set of the CN Canons and I have to say I love them. The lack of a PL mount is a disadvantage if you plan to rent out your glass but if they are for your personnal use EF mount is no problem. People can be passionate about their glass but if you test and use the different lenses the differences are suprisingly subtle and much of the actual difference is lost once its colour graded and then compressed and scaled down for distribution. The CN Canons are amazing value as I bought mine brand new for $3,000 a lens.

Don't underestimate how valuable a T1.4 stop can be in helping create a look or halving your lighting requirements. A lens may sit mainly between F2 and F4 but its very handy to be able to pull a rabbit out of the hat occasionally.
 
Stephane Marino said:
I am about to buy a lens set and I really don't know what to choose between those lenses sets.
What would you choose ?
Thanks for your help.
Click to expand...

I often find myself shooting with primes and zooms on a job, so you should also consider what zooms you would like to use.
 
I have to say I am totally happy with the EF mount on the Canon bottles and the Epic's EF positive lock mount. I dont really care how a lens is mounted on a camera as long as it stays there! The changeover on the Epic to a PL mount is so painless and quick I am happy to mix lens mounts on a shoot if required. I hate renting out my lenses except to trusted friends so the EF inhouse solution works for me.
 
My understanding was that the 24 and longer CN-E's do cover full frame

24
35
50
85
135

for my personal use this seems like an AWESOME set, and if I need wider than that I would likely use the Allstar Modded 18-35 Sigma f1.8 - or maybe a specialty prime like the Zeiss 15mm which I haven't used but is supposed to be a banger as well...

I'm eager to shoot both the CN-E's and the Schneiders... Love me some lenses!
 
Stephane Marino said:
Matt, what do you dislike so much in this set ?
Click to expand...

EF mount unless you want to pay extra for the PL modification. Fairly soft wide open (especially the 85mm), I'd say CP.2 super speeds are slightly sharper and have slightly better resolution overall. The Canons CA is a bit worse than the CP.2's. I like the more clean sterile look of the Zeiss lenses compared to the ever so slight "warm" Canons. But it's just a personal preference and you can always color match them. I just have a preference for Zeiss when it comes to the Canon vs. Zeiss debate.

Can you spot the Canon CNE shots in this ad? I'll give you a hint, look for the CA.

As an aside we compiled all the high speed lenses and shot a comparison. You can check out the results here and have access to all the files to directly compare/contrast. Also check out the video to see bokeh, breathing, and flaring.
http://matthayslett.com/salt-iii-high-speed-lens-shootout-wfo/
 
Stephane Marino said:
OK, all those wide, high-angle shots ? :)
Click to expand...

yup ;)

So tell me CA doesn't bother you? lol
I hate CA with a passion, and the fringing... It sticks out like a sore thumb in a piece with higher end lenses.
 
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