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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet-X Audio

I would plug my battery powered AT897 shotgun into a homemade xlr-miniplug adapter cable and set input to balanced. But that's just me, because that's what I have available that I know will work.

There probably are some really cheap coin-battery powered condenser mics around that could work and would be very small, but you'd probably also have to make an adapter or solder on a different connector.
 
I have audio showing on the audio meters, going through to the headphones just fine. But audio is not being recorded.

Tried balanced and unbalanced. Have I missed something!
 
Terry,
I'm Asking about microphones. Someone said that even cheap headphone/earbuds actually work. ( a speaker is also a microphone, in reality )
So If I want to go down to radio shack or Sears, or something wacky like that, what can I plug in to that jack to get some kind of audio ?

Phantom power = NO
Bias power = NO
.... jack provides no power... ok ,ok I get it ....

So something with some button batteries inside, got it .... but what? I'm not after golden ears foo foo stuff, just basic camcorder quality hardware. Cheap.
Anybody?



Terry VerHaar said:
Are you asking now about microphones or headphones?
Click to expand...
 
Steve Wake said:
Phantom power will make no difference in the functionality of those mics.

Both of them use "plug-in power" aka bias power, which is a different way of energizing the mic from phantom power. It's common in consumer mics. The voltage differential in phantom power is between the ring(-) and the tip(+) on RED's minijacks. The voltage differential in bias power is between the sleeve (-) and the ring/tip (both ring and tip are (+) since each is a separate channel). As a side note, some "XLR to miniplug" adapter cords have a capacitor hidden inside to block the bias power being supplied by the consumer camcorder. I don't know enough to say definitively what difference this would make to sound, but it's not necessary for a RED adapter cable and I can imagine it could cause problems like clicking under certain circumstances.

Moreover, if you plug in that mono mic (which I assume delivers the same signal to both ring and tip, i.e. dual mono) and turn on phantom power, you will short out the phantom power circuit in the camera. Hopefully that circuit is protected.

People have posted that they are using other bias-powered mics like the Sony ECM-DS30P. They say it is noisy, but it works - apparently even without bias power. Someone else said they plugged in some ipod headphones and it worked. In both cases they said it was good enough for a scratch track.

Personally, I would not plug anything into my $10,000 Scarlet (whenever I get it) unless I KNEW it was designed to work properly with RED's circuit design. I know the circuits are not designed to work with bias powered mics, so I would never use one.

Even with proper mics, I would not insert or remove a miniplug with Brain audio circuits on. Miniplugs can cause temporary shorts as they are being inserted or removed. XLR's don't have that problem - one of their many advantages.

I have to wonder if some of the audio problems reported by some users (and not others) have to do with circuits damaged by plugging the wrong s--t into the camera. I also wonder if the delay in enabling phantom power has to do with damage RED is seeing due to incorrect adapter cords, mics, etc, being used. Some very early posts about audio made it seem that way.
Click to expand...

Thank you for an elaborate answer. However I orderred one mono mic http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs-minigold1.htm before waiting for the someone to answer. Once it gets here I will test it out. If it somehow works giving me the same quality as iPod headphones, I will be happy, I just need a basic scratch track for dual sound and form factor of this mic is much better than iPod headphones (which are also not supposed to work 'on paper' I believe).

Once it arrives before plugging it in I want to be sure that 3 sentences below are correct (please let me know if I got it wrong):
This mono mic might work and give poor quality (but ok for scratch track) or it might not work at all. I can try unbalanced and balanced settings without damaging the camera. I must avoid using phantom power with it once it gets enabled because I might damage the camera.

Thanks,
Kamilla
 
Kamilla Lusa said:
Thank you for an elaborate answer. However I orderred one mono mic http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs-minigold1.htm before waiting for the someone to answer. Once it gets here I will test it out. If it somehow works giving me the same quality as iPod headphones, I will be happy, I just need a basic scratch track for dual sound and form factor of this mic is much better than iPod headphones (which are also not supposed to work 'on paper' I believe).

Once it arrives before plugging it in I want to be sure that 3 sentences below are correct (please let me know if I got it wrong):
This mono mic might work and give poor quality (but ok for scratch track) or it might not work at all. I can try unbalanced and balanced settings without damaging the camera. I must avoid using phantom power with it once it gets enabled because I might damage the camera.

Thanks,
Kamilla
Click to expand...

First, my apologies to all, because I need to make a technical correction. While looking around the Shure site for info on a possible solution I realized my description of phantom power was wrong. With respect to phantom power, tip and ring are both (+) and the sleeve is (-) . The AUDIO signal in a circuit with phantom power is separate, but shares the same connections, and it is BALANCED, with tip (+ audio), ring (- audio), sleeve is ground and acts as a shield and is isolated from the (- audio) signal. Thus the name phantom power since it is hidden/invisible within the audio circuit. I also found out that there is no standard for "plug-in" or "Bias" power other than the fact that power is delivered somehow - in any number of ways and voltages - through the connector to the mic, but the AUDIO is UNBALANCED - that is, the sleeve (-/ground) circuit is involved in carrying the audio signal.

Phantom power = balanced, sleeve not in audio circuit.

Bias power = unbalanced, sleeve in audio circuit.

So with regard to the questions, the answers have to be vague. Not only because of the lack of a standard for Bias/plug-in power, but we also do not have a pinout for the RED miniplugs when set to UNBALANCED. Specifically, when the plug is set to unbalanced is the ring grounded or is it open - not connected to anything (the latter is preferable and safer):

This mono mic might work and give poor quality (but ok for scratch track) or it might not work at all.
Click to expand...
True.

I can try unbalanced and balanced settings without damaging the camera.
Click to expand...
Balanced should not work at all under any circumstances since the above mic (mono or stereo version) will not complete an audio circuit between the tip and ring, as is required in balanced mode. The signal you get from the stereo version with camera audio in balanced might be the difference between left and right channels - pretty negligible garbage.

Unbalanced might get you something. If the jack ring is grounded, you should get nothing with the mono version since all audio would short to ground - assuming it's dual mono (tip and ring connected and carry the identical + audio signal). If the jack ring is open it should work (except you're not providing power - but you might get a weak signal anyway, like with earbuds). With a mono tip and sleeve connector (two-contact plug) and jack set to unbalanced, the audio signal, if it exists - should come through. This is probably why people report using the headphone out from a Zoom H4 along with a stereo to mono splitter with success. (Careful with any two-contact mono plug as it will short phantom power).

I must avoid using phantom power with it once it gets enabled because I might damage the camera.
Click to expand...
Camera circuits are probably protected, but the protection could trigger a need to reboot. Worst case is phantom power (+) shorts to ground. One scenario for this would be using a two-contact mono plug with phantom on. If camera circuits are not protected ... You could also damage the mic depending on how it's wired and it's tolerance for mistakes.

I'd still suggest as a best practice, making and breaking all connections to those minijacks with the camera (or at least audio) off.

As far as solutions for those looking for a button mic for a scratch track:
  1. I suggest contacting the maker of that button mic and ask if they can make one wired to use phantom power (for the time when RED enables it).
  2. Find an old button battery powered lav or lecture mic on eBay. I did a quick check and was surprised how rare these are. They used to be ubiquitous - but I'm dating myself. These are usually stereo. If the ring on the RED minijack is open in the unbalanced setting it should be ok, but if it is grounded you could have problems and you would need an adapter. If you can find a mono one you should be good.
  3. I actually went to the Shure site in the first place to see if they still made a dynamic lav mic. They still do http://www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/sm/sm11-lavalier-microphone. It comes with an XLR, of course, but if I had one of these laying around and really wanted a small scratch mic I might resolder the connections and epoxy a miniplug right onto the mic. A little bigger than ideal, but might work.
  4. Convince RED to finish development of the phantom-powered button mic they showed a couple of years ago.
 
Thank you Steve once again.

I have contacted the maker of that button mic about wiring it for phantom power and he says 'The voltage of the phantom power will fry the mic. Its maximum voltage is 10 volts.' The search for compact button mic continues...
 
All audio is now sorted, didn't realise PPr at this moment in time, cannot import Scarlet audio, though l now know you can import it through as a separate audio file through RedCine-X Pro
 
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