Scarlet-W announcement only really hurt Scarlet-D owners

[Scott Crawley]

Good points... and if you amortize the amount of value lost over the time you owned it, you'll find you've paid a pretty low "rental" fee for owning the camera.

That value also increases the more you utilized the kit during that time, fee income or no.

 

[Phil Holland]

Many will sell their scarlet-D when receiving the W. The more they wait the more it will depreciate too.

I don't disagree. However, if it was me and Scarlet was my main camera I'd keep both bodies and have the ability to shoot multi-cam. That's just me though

 

[George Butterfield]

'The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo' was shot using the MX chip, maybe even with some original RED ONE clips, not sure.

 

[Dan Kanes]

A car is worth 20% less the moment you drive it off the lot.

It's all about getting your mileage on the camera to justify your expense.

Also, whether you are working on a $500 budget project all in, or a $5000 project all in, or $50,000 all in - it's what you net from being on the job that matters.

Value your time, value your equipment - because if you don't, few others will and will want to take advantage of you.

would you rather work on a freebie with a low end camera or a freebie with a high end camera ?

My answer is neither , unless it's going to build your reel, in which case you want the best tools available.

Like Bjorn said, you could keep shooting the same camera for 6 more years and definitely get your mileage on it.

No judgements here, I understand your feelings and Wishing you all the best.

 

[Erich Roland]

... Much wisdom here, thanks for sharing it.

When I look at the bigger picture what I see is Red coming of age. They are finding where they fit in the market and are becoming a little less disruptive.

Would you go along with that Erich? I suspect rental houses such as yours welcome the return of stability to the market.

Things are changing fast with pricing, resolution, color science, size, weight, power consumption/batteries, etc. Looking back you see periods with less change and other times with accelerated change. From where I sit (long time user and rental facility purchaser) its hard to predict the next 6 months much less the next few years, but it feels to me like these camera companies are coming through a period (the last 3-5 years) where there has been a LOT of change.... and they are all jockeying for position for the next 3-5 years when those established positions may hold steady for a while. So its important for the camera maker to be satisfied with their place in the market.

Red is making "disruptive" position changes right now with Pro-Res and relatively inexpensive models up through the high-end. Sony has also been somewhat innovated and aggressive in new technologies and market positioning. Canon I think made a bad move with the c300-2, we will see. Arri has been slow by comparison because they are positioned well (or have been the last 5 years) and I suspect has multi tiers of products up their sleeves should they choose to pull the trigger. I imagine Arri's decisions are based on sales figures and general appetite for pissing off recent buying customers. The Mini has been a hit (more then they thought would sell), and when orders start dropping off which could very well happen with competition heating up they could pull out the higher resolution camera models waiting in the wings.

From a rental facility perspective, I don't mind the fast change pace, it sort of works in our favor in some ways. Not always but if your smart about when and how much to buy and when to sell it can work out okay, same as anybody really.

 

[Ash Worth]

IMHO the recent news of the mighty new Scarlet-W brain for $9950 is only good to hurt current Scarlet-D and Epic-D owners and even Weapon Pre-orders (can you imagine that? This red camera is not fully available yet and is loosing popularity).

Before the announcement the price of the Scarlet-D camera was $14,500 (only to recap this camera only been available "In STOCK" to purchase for about a year only) Red now is offering a new smaller body, lighter, Prores capable, 50% cheaper.

At least you have a project to shoot before April (maybe a bit longer before normal human being like us start receiving their orders) I really doubt Anybody will be willing to pay any decent money for a Scarlet-D any time soon.

For current Scarlet-D owners the upgrade is not really tempting I meant Camera looks nice and the not need of lemo connector is kind of cool. I don't really care about Prores, size and weight improvements. what really matter for most people is Image Quality and that didn't changed at all. But honestly what hurted most was the sudenlly devaluation of my few old moths Scarlet. The $2,000 discount is welcome but not fair and enough.

I definitely will keep my Scarlet for a year or two until I can't make any more money with it. But definitly this will be the last time I invest in anything red again. Make lot more sense to RENT than buying these RED cameras that devaluate so rapidly. The amount of projects for me that really required a RED are well paid but very tiny in a year (I don't have any doubt those project can afford renting). Apart of the few commericials, I had use the scarlet for some other projects but only because I have it next to me. other cameras would had perfectly been fit for the job for example the sony FS7, which is my workhorse and was fully paid with in two months since them is been all profits to funds my Scarlet debt.
Saddly I think this is the case for most red camera owners. Unfotunally not everybody is called on a weekly basis to shoot $50,000-$100,000 project that requiere a $25,000 camera kit.

Peace guys I'm just angry about my poor decisions and honetly I'm not totally blaming RED for all this. I understand is not easy keep up in a market with companies like Blackmagic offering a similar product for a fraction of the price. Worst thing is NAB is not here yet but all those companies know what red repertoire is. I think a better tatic these days would had been, Secretly having Dragon-W cameras ready for NAB so people can order them at the time of announcement. I think THAT would had been revolutionary and diferent from actual practices.

I think a simple bit of business knowledge would have avoided this problem. I don't get why so few people do the math. Before purchasing you had a history of how much work you get right? From this you could figure out how much to spend on a camera considering the next 2-3 years. For example my camera goes out 4-8 times a month. Using the lower number thats 48 X $500 a year it brings in so $24,000. Over 3 years...

I'm not on big jobs by any means or working full time. In fact if you are a working cameraman these numbers are close to being irrelevant to the purchase cost of the camera.

 

[Elsie N]

Things are changing fast with pricing, resolution, color science, size, weight, power consumption/batteries, etc. Looking back you see periods with less change and other times with accelerated change. From where I sit (long time user and rental facility purchaser) its hard to predict the next 6 months much less the next few years, but it feels to me like these camera companies are coming through a period (the last 3-5 years) where there has been a LOT of change.... and they are all jockeying for position for the next 3-5 years when those established positions may hold steady for a while. So its super important to be satisfied with that place in the market.

Red is making "disruptive" position changes right now with Pro-Res and relatively inexpensive models up through the high-end. Sony has also been somewhat innovated and aggressive in new technologies and market positioning. Canon I think made a bad move with the c300-2, we will see. Arri has been slow by comparison (because they are positioned well (or have been the last 5 years) but I suspect has multi tiers of products up their sleeves should they choose to pull the trigger. I imagine Arri's decisions are based on sales figures. The Mini has been a hit (more then they thought would sell), and when orders start dropping off which could very well happen with competition heating up they could pull out the higher resolution camera's waiting in the wings.

From a rental facility perspective, I don't mind the fast change pace, it sort of works in our favor in some ways. Not always but if your smart about when and how much to buy and when to sell it can work out okay, same as anybody really.

I guess this puts me in the camp of the "futurists" but for my money things are moving at a snail's pace in re: acquisition technology. I'm not talking about really far-out-there tech, some of which hasn't even been imagined yet... but instead things that should be doable now but aren't being done.

Like for instance, a camera with a removable lens unit that sends back a high data stream to the camera "brain" for interpretation and recording. The science for sending large amounts of data over a short distance has already been proven... using UHF I think... posted a link to that some months ago but don't remember all the details.

Anyway, being able to separate the sensor from the brain itself when desired, means you have the capability to shoot like a large GoPro combined with the computing power of a super computer.

I guess I don't qualify as a "futurist" after all, since this is something that is doable now.

 

[Erich Roland]

I guess this puts me in the camp of the "futurists" but for my money things are moving at a snail's pace in re: acquisition technology. I'm not talking about really far-out-there tech, some of which hasn't even been imagined yet... but instead things that should be doable now but aren't being done.

Like for instance, a camera with a removable lens unit that sends back a high data stream to the camera "brain" for interpretation and recording. The science for sending large amounts of data over a short distance has already been proven... using UHF I think... posted a link to that some months ago but don't remember all the details.

Anyway, being able to separate the sensor from the brain itself when desired, means you have the capability to shoot like a large GoPro combined with the computing power of a super computer.

I guess I don't qualify as a "futurist" after all, since this is something that is doable now.

I would imagine this kind of thing is being worked on, but maybe the cost vs demand is not there yet.

 

[Elsie N]

I would imagine this kind of thing is being worked on, but maybe the cost vs demand is not there yet.

Or it could be established companies are afraid to step out for fear of lack of demand leading to bad press, as you suggest. This would in fact be the Tucker Torpedo of cameras and we all know what happened to that company. It's probably going to be a new company that disrupts the industry, like RED once did.

Pity if it's not RED because they have the sensor plus the back end to do something like this right.

 

[Hugh Scully]

Maybe Red should upgrade the body and the sensor at once. By separating them it's now one upgrade every year and each one almost halves the price of the previous model.

That's why there's no news here for Scarlet Dragon owners like me. There is no upgrade to Scarlet-W. It's a huge relief! Buy a Weapon when they change sensors. That's what I'm doing. For some reason, kindness I suppose, you can buy a new Scarlet-W at a $2500 discount if you need or want one. I'm not selling mine. I'm hanging on to it until it rusts out Shooting 5K Dragon on mini-mags just like I've been doing since I bought it in March. Nothing's changed except RED has some cool new products at killer prices that I don't need right now.

 

[Mike Garrick]

The answer in all of this, wait a year there will be another Red camera coming......as this now seems to be the current product cycle.

 

[Stacey Spears]

For current Scarlet-D owners the upgrade is not really tempting

Did you mean to write that it is not temping for YOU?

what really matter for most people is Image Quality and that didn't changed at all.

I went from EPIC-M Dragon to Weapon and image quality is absolutely better. The CMOS smear and extra half a stop on the bottom end is VERY noticeable. The Scarlet-W will get the same improvement over Scarlet D.

Worst thing is NAB is not here yet but all those companies know what red repertoire is. I think a better tatic these days would had been, Secretly having Dragon-W cameras ready for NAB so people can order them at the time of announcement. I think THAT would had been revolutionary and diferent from actual practices.

There have been posts where some people who had pre-ordered Raven are now switching to Scarlet-W. Had RED waited until NAB, after people have taken delivery of their Raven, some of them may have been upset. Now they have a chance to decide for themselves which one to get.

Peace guys I'm just angry about my poor decisions and honetly I'm not totally blaming RED for all this.

Nothing wrong with venting.

Saddly I think this is the case for most red camera owners.

Again, I think you meant that this is the case for YOU. Sorry, I just don't like it when people speak for me. As I said above, I don't see anything wrong with people venting. I think it is healthy and I know when I vent I feel better.

 

[Josh Becker]

I think $2500 off the package (and getting to KEEP YOUR CAMERA!) isn't a bad deal. I'm sure you can sell he Scarlet-D for a decent amount if you don't need two cameras. If you have a use for two Scarlets, then the upgrade pricing is a great offer on an already well-priced camera.

 

[Andy Corleone]

Scarlet-D has only been available to order at RED.com for less than 12 months, I know every people needs are different but looking at some people response and been totally happy about a camera losing 50% value in a year is a bit shocking.

My experience with other manufacturer is not even close to that.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I think $2500 off the package (and getting to KEEP YOUR CAMERA!) isn't a bad deal. I'm sure you can sell he Scarlet-D for a decent amount if you don't need two cameras. If you have a use for two Scarlets, then the upgrade pricing is a great offer on an already well-priced camera.

Josh - I think this is the essence that some folks just aren't recognizing. I have a Scarlet Dragon with a side SSD module and a LOT of DSMC1 modules and accessories. It is a GREAT camera. But, if I want to move along the path with RED, I will need to upgrade to mini-mags and build a new set of modules and accessories in the DSMC2 environment. For the mini-mag alone I'd already have to spend $1500. Some people look at that negatively but I don't; you can't expect RED to NOT keep innovating and improving. The price to the customer is that they need to keep investing in the system.

But, with my $2500 discount on an already well-priced package, I get to move into the new ecosystem - with the $1500 mini-mag included, and get a whole lot of performance improvements (see Jarred's latest post listing them) as well. I may not get to recover every dollar I have invested in my DSMC1 system, but, should I choose to let loose of my old system, I am sure I can make a huge dent in my upgrade price.

Personally, I'll probably wait awhile to buy my Scarlet-W, but I will happily shoot my Scarlet Dragon until that day. I just don't understand why some folks think this is such a bad deal. :001_huh:

 

[Stacey Spears]

I know every people needs are different but looking at some people response and been totally happy about a camera losing 50% value in a year is a bit shocking.

The value of the camera only matters when the time comes to sell it. Unless you were planning to sell it shortly, this should not matter. You can still go out and make money shooting on the camera. Remember, you can shoot 6k stills or timelapse with your Scarlet D. This is something Scarlet-W owners will not be able to do. (So far as we know)

If anything, RED has hurt sales of the Scarlet D. Chances are people will now wait for the Scarlet-W, which is a loss of short term income for RED.

Were you not around when RED reduced the price of the EPIC? It was a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH larger price reduction than what you are seeing with Scarlet. I bring this up because here is an example of history repeating itself.

RED really changed the industry by making high end cameras accessible. Before this, renting was the norm. Owning a camera is probably not the best choice for some. For me, I like owning. I don't have to plan or schedule a shoot. I woke up around 2 AM last summer and decided to drive 3 hours to be at Mt Rainier so I could capture the sunrise. It is little things like that that I can do as an owner, but I am an odd duck.

I did a kitchen remodel last year. I know I will never ever recoup what I spent when I resale my place. There are over-the-top creature comforts, such as a $3500 ice maker, that I really wanted. Now I have the most amazing nugget ice and I am pretty sure that no one will want to pay extra for my place because it has the ice maker. But I don't think about resale value, I think about living happy with my decisions.

 

[Josh Becker]

Josh - I think this is the essence that some folks just aren't recognizing. I have a Scarlet Dragon with a side SSD module and a LOT of DSMC1 modules and accessories. It is a GREAT camera. But, if I want to move along the path with RED, I will need to upgrade to mini-mags and build a new set of modules and accessories in the DSMC2 environment. For the mini-mag alone I'd already have to spend $1500. Some people look at that negatively but I don't; you can't expect RED to NOT keep innovating and improving. The price to the customer is that they need to keep investing in the system.

But, with my $2500 discount on an already well-priced package, I get to move into the new ecosystem - with the $1500 mini-mag included, and get a whole lot of performance improvements (see Jarred's latest post listing them) as well. I may not get to recover every dollar I have invested in my DSMC1 system, but, should I choose to let loose of my old system, I am sure I can make a huge dent in my upgrade price.

Personally, I'll probably wait awhile to buy my Scarlet-W, but I will happily shoot my Scarlet Dragon until that day. I just don't understand why some folks think this is such a bad deal. :001_huh:

I'll tell you what, the discount is more than I've seen Sony ever offer for their existing customers! And companies like Canon showed their appreciation to the original C300 owners by cutting the price to $7k (effectively given it a used value of $4-5k max). So Canon users had the pleasure of not only receiving a $0 discount but they had their old camera's value drastically reduced.

And ultimately, these are tools for professional use so your purchase and usage should be based on the return you feel you can get on that investment (and not factoring potential upgrades etc.). Any discount or upgrade extended by RED is a cherry on top and just good customer service. But I'm also speaking from the perspective of someone who has never bought from RED before. I've got my Scarlet-W preorder in, though!

 

[Louis Maddalena]

Exactly. It doesn't matter what kind of camera you buy. You buy it to make images and just because a new camera comes out does not mean your camera can not create those images.

You figure out how much money you can make off that camera before its end of life. Your clients are not going to say "Hey the Scarlet-W is out now, so we are only going to pay you $50 for you camera on this set. " They mostly likely won't even know, and if they do know they are not going to care. For the most part this allows you get into the next camera system for a discount and have two cameras as either a back up or a second angle.

 

[Dean Butler]

Interesting. I held tight on my scarlet mx when the scarlet dragon was announced. I personally think RED have nailed the pricepoint/feature set on the Scarlet-W. It's a true digital replacement for 35mm film. No its not the same, doesn't have global shutter but its the next best thing, has great frame rate options and I don't need to wait for scans to come back. I personally plan to hold onto it for a good 5 years as my A cam till 2020. Sure new options will come out but I dont rent out so no affect on me. Im not a dp though, I make projects as part of a small production team. 2016 the year of the Scarlet-W

 

[Nick Morrison]

Scarlet-D has only been available to order at RED.com for less than 12 months, I know every people needs are different but looking at some people response and been totally happy about a camera losing 50% value in a year is a bit shocking.

My experience with other manufacturer is not even close to that.

Andy, the Scarlet Dragon was announced and went on sale at NAB 2014, in APRIL. That's 22 months ago.

Its been widely known RED has been moving AWAY from DSMC to DSMC2 since NAB 2015 (over 7 months ago) when they OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCED WEAPON (and stated the Scarlet Dragon trade-in value was only $2,500).

They've been teasing RAVEN and SCARLET-W on Facebook and Reduser SINCE THE SUMMER.

There has been ample warnings Scarlet-D has come to the end of it's life cycle.

Anyone who purchased a Scarlet-D I have to imagine would have (or could have) known this. None of this should be a shock.

That said, a camera's worth is still what you make it. A Scarlet-D is still a top of the line, world class cinema camera. The Martian was shot on Dragon 5K. Thats same as a Scarlet-D. The quality (and value) of the camera hasnt changed.

Its REDs JOB to innovate. Pure and simple. Asking them to slow down so a camera can retain it's value, is asking them to change who they are, and jeapordizes the community as a whole. RED's success and innovations are good for us all. It's whats allowed them to create a $9,500 Weapon-S, a camera with the best price/performance ratio in the business.

I, personally, dont want RED to slow down. In fact, I can't wait to see what they do next! Because their innovations and relentless pursuit of "perfection" have so far led to the two most disruptive announcements in the camera world in recent memory - RAVEN and SCARLET-W.

Not that I dont empathize with your plight (I bought a Scarlet MX in winter 2013!!). But unfortunately, cameras are like computers. They get replaced every 2 years. Ask Sony, Canon, or Black Magic owners how they feel. Its just a reality of production these days. For better. Or for worse.

Good luck with the camera. Its still a world class piece of cinema!!