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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet vs Canon 1DC...?

Pros:

Small
Lightweight
Amazing Stills
Full Frame
Amazing low-light
Weather proof (shoot in rain without cover)
Built in mic
Built in LCD
Can go anywhere (on bus, any public place etc.)

Cons:

Rolling shutter
Large File sizes
No RAW for video
Frame Rates Limited to 60p (up-res'd?)
8bit
422
MJPEG Codec
Expensive storage
No zebras, focus assist while recording, peaking.
Overpriced
 
Hi Peer.
We have both an Epic and a 1DC. If I had to choose between them, I wouldn´t hesitate to grab the Epic.
Having said that, it´s sometimes great to work with such a small package as the 1DC.
As others have stated, the post workflow is a bit of a pain with the Canon. We have a brand new PC with a Titan card and can play the Epic files just find, but the 1DC footage always stutters
 
Why not just buy a Scarlet and a 5D3 and put the Magic Lantern hack on the latter? Then you'll have 2 RAW camera packages, the Canon for low budget gigs and the Red for larger ones. If you decide to buy a Red, just be aware that it quickly puts you in a mind set of wanting to buy more and more gear (like PL glass, upgrading to Dragon, etc.).

Mike
 
I shot a lot with SLRs but not with the 1DC.
But from looking at it I can only assume that it will never show up as the main camera on any larger film shoot. I think the 1DC never will show up as the main camera on any bigger shoot, that maybe goes for the scarlet as well but at least a scarlet works just as an epic and is built to handle such scenarios. I also think that the scarlet / epic is not really perfectly built for a one man band that's shoots from the hip then The DC1 is probably a better choice with less weight and smaller/longer lasting batteries and less costly accessories and price for the actual camera ready to shoot.

So basically I think the scarlet is a starting point maybe it's equal in all other regards to the 1DC, they booth got the upper hand on each other for certain things / scenarios / ways of working. But the 1DC is not a starting point as you can not really build anything on it. It's what it is and if you want to progress from it then, you need to swap camera most likely to a camera from a different brand that works very differently.
 
i would say the biggest difference is that the 1DC is a still camera that happens to shoot motion, the scarlet is a motion camera that lets you pull stills....so a lot depends on what you need more....
i am not sure i understand the 1dc....it looks like an overpriced DSLR (you can get better stills for a lot less money) with soso 4k....the still frames from the 4k motion are not what i would consider useable for commercial work...they are large-ish heavily compressed jpeg....so whatever is not right in camera is lost and even what is right is not very "massage able" in terms of what we are used to (levels, curves, color,.....)...
the scarlet is in many ways liimited as well....it is so much bigger, slower, heavier and just in no way comparable to a DSLR in terms of shooting stills....and i am not a big fan of the stills from the scarlet....4K is just too small to really pull stills from anyway....the epic is a different league....
i have a BMC (2.5K) as well as epic and honestly the 2.5k DNG stills blow up much better then the 1dc jpegs....it is a different animal...again....i think the 4K BMCC is a much better idea then the 1dc...especially if you are looking for quality stills and motion....for a much lower price as well....
 
paul schefz said:
i would say the biggest difference is that the 1DC is a still camera that happens to shoot motion, the scarlet is a motion camera that lets you pull stills....so a lot depends on what you need more....
i am not sure i understand the 1dc....it looks like an overpriced DSLR (you can get better stills for a lot less money) with soso 4k....the still frames from the 4k motion are not what i would consider useable for commercial work...they are large-ish heavily compressed jpeg....so whatever is not right in camera is lost and even what is right is not very "massage able" in terms of what we are used to (levels, curves, color,.....)...
the scarlet is in many ways liimited as well....it is so much bigger, slower, heavier and just in no way comparable to a DSLR in terms of shooting stills....and i am not a big fan of the stills from the scarlet....4K is just too small to really pull stills from anyway....the epic is a different league....
i have a BMC (2.5K) as well as epic and honestly the 2.5k DNG stills blow up much better then the 1dc jpegs....it is a different animal...again....i think the 4K BMCC is a much better idea then the 1dc...especially if you are looking for quality stills and motion....for a much lower price as well....
Click to expand...
I agree with much of this except I strongly disagree with the DNG stills being blown up to be better then the 1DC even in 4K m-jpeg. I don't have any scientific proof, but with tests i've done i'd strongly disagree with that assessment.

With that said sure the "IDEA" of the BMC 4K is great. It's not even released. Pretty sure they're still working on the sensor. And even if you did order it in the first hour or two, you probably won't see it until 4 months after it starts shipping. Like the digital bolex it's still somewhat vapor at this point.
 
Thanks everyone for the feedback (and that especially from you who have shot with both these cameras).


Matthew Scott said:
The 1DC is quicker, quieter, longer lasting, lighter, more versatile (stills and video, and don't try and tell me a still frame grab from red compares), is a complete package and shoots beautifully sharp and pleasantly coloured 4k video to relatively affordable media.
Click to expand...

Although I shot a bit with my dad's 16mm as a kid, my background is photography, and have mostly been a Canon guy to boot. So I was delighted when Canon initially announced the 1DC. But when I later discovered its price-tag along with its 8-bit shortcoming, I was back ogling the Scarlet/Epic (following RED's price drop).

Jeffrey Loewe said:
For me I sometimes need a strong low light camera that still delivers 4K with just natural lighting.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's also what I often need. Hence, over the years I've collected some fast still lenses (f/1.4 Zeiss') to tackle noise.


Here's one example of a lowlight shoot I did with a 5D, Sigma 20mm f/1.8, which was initially shown in full screen theaters -- oh yes, I cringe at the noise and blown highlights, etc:


http://vimeo.com/75101017


-- peer
 
Jeffrey Loewe said:
I agree with much of this except I strongly disagree with the DNG stills being blown up to be better then the 1DC even in 4K m-jpeg. I don't have any scientific proof, but with tests i've done i'd strongly disagree with that assessment.

With that said sure the "IDEA" of the BMC 4K is great. It's not even released. Pretty sure they're still working on the sensor. And even if you did order it in the first hour or two, you probably won't see it until 4 months after it starts shipping. Like the digital bolex it's still somewhat vapor at this point.
Click to expand...

i have no real interest in the 4k BMC but i am sure it is not vapor....they were crazy late with the 2.5k BMC and this is no different....

about the upsizing of the stills....there is no comparison...you are talking about 4K compressed jpeg (shot through a strong AA filter) vs 2.5K DNG (no AA)....i did that comparison and there is a clear winner....i would even say that the 2.5K res up better then scarlet 4K (8:1 and up)....
 
Sabyasachi Patra said:
Different price points. 1DC due to its 12k USD pricing is much more affordable by smaller productions.
Click to expand...

Perhaps this doesn't make much difference to the issue at hand -- but the funds I have available for my next camera purchase can easily cover a full packaged Epic -- but I certainly would disdain myself having purchased something that would shortly be replaced, rebated, or not being sufficient for the money paid. Hence, I can only make one epic purchase, whether it's an Epic, Scarlet, 1DC, BMC, etc...


-- peer
 
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Peer Landa said:
Perhaps this doesn't make much difference to the issue at hand -- but the funds I have available for my next camera purchase can easily cover a full packaged Epic -- but I certainly would disdain myself having purchased something that would shortly be replaced, rebated, or not being sufficient for the money paid. Hence, I can only make one epic purchase, whether it's an Epic, Scarlet, 1DC, BMC, etc...


-- peer
Click to expand...

Red's recent price slashes, especially the fire sale of BT Red Ones, have me very gun shy about buying any Red products. The sting of such a violent haircut on the value of our cams will perhaps never fade. Being told that I should be happy, because some broke shelb I never met can now have cheap access to Red technology was the icing on the foul cake.

In fact it left such a bad taste in my mouth I doubt we will even upgrade to Dragon - better to rent, let somebody else worry about hemorrhaging money.

All this to say... My advice to you: buy nothing, rent.
 
I do grade 1.5.7D's with Red Mx/Scralet/Epic and others too.

All the footages from D's i get are really good VIDEO images which i had to push out of limits to get some kind of film look.
1D's 4k dosen't help too much because of its codec.

on the other hand Red MX/Scralet looks more of film and helps in selective grading and CGI workflows , even Indie films may have creative requirement.

and grading Red Epic , actually its too far ahead to compare with.

any D's has least chance of getting a REDFilm Look in post.
but
RED can achieve any sort of look in post soft/hard/crisp/filmic etc.

while talking with some RED shooters, some prefer to go with a ssd,lens and small battery to shoot in DSLR style . some even use a DSLR bag to carry RED for quick shots.

As a colorist , i always prefer Raw images to grade on. like my favourite REDCODE.


No knowledge on prices or budgets.
 
Peer Landa said:
I'm one of those still on the fence -- Epic, Scarlet, etc... or maybe a Canon 1DC (have to admit that ever since the 1DC was announced, I've been tempted). So I just got an email from a 1DC owner, stating (amongst other things) that his camera will "On the lowlight end, the 1Dc would be running circles around a Scarlet."


Please give me some arguments for the Scarlet (or Epic), and I'll pull the plug on my deviant Canon thoughts.


-- peer
Click to expand...
I've used all three of the cameras you mentioned. Epic, scarlet, and 1DC. The 1dc is superb for low key , low light, grab the shot and run doc style work. It does however have quite a bit of image skew from rolling shutter. That said its log function and 4k are quite good. Has amazing color reproduction.


The scarlet is essentially the modern day ARRi BL4. No frills cinema camera. Gets it done, at max quality for what's it's designed to do.

I do like the 1dc a lot however. Very nice camera. I shot Vincent Laforet's Movi film with it.
 
We had our Epic-M for over 2 years now, prices has been slashed, but as I´m not planning on selling it, it dosen´t affect us much.
You could always rent of course, but that means you will only shoot with the camera on well paid jobs.
A big part of the value of buying a camera is that you can take it out whenever you want to shoot. This improves your confidence in the camera and (hopefully) your skills too.
It´s not just about financial value to me. If I were you I would buy RED over Canon as it´s just that bit more rewarding to shoot with IMHO.
 
Its a reasonable question, 1DC vs Scarlet. I think Mathew gave the best answer of all:

The 1DC does everything well, but loses in one Key aspect: Image quality for video. If its the best image quality video camera in the price range you're looking for, go for Scarlet.
 
I own more Canon Cameras than any other brand, they are fine cameras for Stills and timelapse and the 5D3's useful for video capture IF you are willing to accept the rolling shutter issues and 8 bit images.

We don't use the 1DC, or C300 or C500 due to its 8Bit capture format. Granted it encodes images well but 8bit encoding is not acceptable to us for the work which we do. If you used an external recorder then this would help encoding issues but youd have to feed the recorder with at least a 10bit signal, from what I recall I don't think the cameras output 10bit images. Be good if some one can confirm this.

RAW is the way forward in my view.
 
Dave Blackham said:
We don't use the 1DC, or C300 or C500 due to its 8Bit capture format. Granted it encodes images well but 8bit encoding is not acceptable to us for the work which we do. If you used an external recorder then this would help encoding issues but youd have to feed the recorder with at least a 10bit signal, from what I recall I don't think the cameras output 10bit images. Be good if some one can confirm this.
Click to expand...

C100 and C300 output 8 bit 4:2:2, (C100 HDMI, C300 SDI).
C500 does 10bit 4:2:2, 4:4:4 and 12bit 4:4:4.

Since we've had short films, music videos and even TVCs coming in for post shot on DSLRs and survived (with special care), with lower resolution mush in a 1080p container, rather poorly compressed into 50 mb/s 4:2:0 h.264,
I don't see a huge issue with full 1080p resolution properly scaled from an UHD sensor being captured in 8bit 4:2:2 uncompressed. Not if one has $6000 to spend for a camera.

These cameras have detailed settings onboard for picture tuning and basic "look" creation, so it's basically like first light is already done, and non-drastic grading of uncompressed 8 bit from that point shouldn't be a problem for an experienced colorist.
Of course, pretty limited compared to 10 bit uncompressed and 12-16 bit raw, but doable.
 
So I still wonder if there's any test footage out there showing how these cameras compare vis-à-vis in 4K when it comes to blown highlights, noisy lowlight, banding, etc. -- e.g., an A/B test between the 1DC and the Scarlet/Epic.


-- peer
 
Ryan Fitzgerald said:
Honestly, If you can afford an epic... anything else is just old technology.
Click to expand...

Well, to me it still relates to the simple fact that 'the more I spend, the longer I need it to last' -- i.e., if getting an Epic, which cost three times as much as an 1DC -- I need it to last a bit longer than the timespan of an 1DC. Hence, when spending this kind of money, I'd hate to see it replaced/rebated before its "time is up" compared to the 1DC.


-- peer
 
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