Scarlet vs. Black Magic 4K

[Douglas Quill]

I'm looking to pull the trigger on a new camera. The two cameras I am seriously considering are the Scarlet and the Black Magic 4K Production Camera. I understand that the BM has yet to be released and have only seen 2 videos posted. (Here's 1 -- http://vimeo.com/82269515)

The price of the Black Magic being 4 grand is obviously enticing. It seems that I could get a rig up and running (body/cage/media) and an Anton Bauer battery kit for around 8 grand, and think I'd be able to use my current tripod set up given its a pretty light weight camera. With this similar idea in mind and utilizing the Red Faculty discount, I'd be able to do the same (body/media/power) for around 16 grand (roughly twice the cost). However, now I'd need a new tripod/head which for a good used one may run around 4 grand and now I'm at 20 grand. Definitely more expensive, but the idea that the Red is upgradable and viewed as one of the worlds top competing cameras seems like a safer long term investment?

Currently I would say I spend 1/3 to 1/2 the year working on features, either as a Gaffer or DP. The past few features we shot on the Genesis, Ikonoscop, and BM 2K. I personally would think a Scarlet would be a better choice for a feature than any of these camera. That being said, if producers are looking to shoot Red for a feature, I'm guessing they would opt for the Epic over the Scarlet. The other half of my work is DSLR shoots, which I've grown extremely tired/frustrated with and am hoping the purchase of a better camera will push me out of that pond. I know that owning a Red is not necessarily going to get me better/more work, but it will improve production value and I'd be able to offer a Red package over a DSLR package.

Other things I am considering is with the release of the Dragon sensor, whether this will drop the current price of the Scarlet X. Will Red start producing Scarlet Dragons at the same price they are now selling Scarlet X's for (as in the case of Apple). Another thing I am considering is that at the end of the day if most of the stuff thats being shot will wind up on the web, can you really tell the difference between Scarlet, Black Magic, 5D Magic Lantern? I'm sure this question will be quite controversial and will offend many die hard Red fanatics, but lets be honest here. After the color grade and compression, is there really a 10-15 grand difference in quality?

All things considered, I am mainly looking to purchase a camera to build a more professional portfolio of work, to be able to work with a professional camera at my own disposal, and hopefully to bring in a few more clams/year.

What are your thoughts?

(If you are looking to bag on me for comparing these cameras please refrain from posting)

Thanks

 

[Björn Benckert]

The large Side SSD modules will come cheep shorty, just as large SSD's. And second hand epic and scarlets will go lower in price when more dragons are out. That will probably happen before you get your hands on that 4k BMC... old rockets will aslo come cheep as dragon users need to sell off and move to rocket X... So with that in mind you can cut a bit of a bit of the scarlet price especially if you thinking of buying at the time when the BMC is actually available. And I would not worry to much about buying SSD's side module camera and rocket used. If they work they usually continue to do so for quite some time forward.

 

[Jaimy Soares]

It's fairly simple yet as difficult you want to make it.
Can you spend it?
Can you make it back?

And most of all where do you feel comfortable?

I choose RED for this. The whole thing of getting support here on this page, but also at RED.
My experiance with the tech support and support on this forum is outstanding.

I bought my Scarlet in the beginning of December it came in with a couple of faulty things and RED support was amazing! Via e-mail, telephone everything.

I send her yesterday and today I woke up with an e-mail from RED europ that my scarlet was safe and sound within the facility.


For me that stuff is priceless and I'm going to stay here with RED, even if I need to send my scarlet back hundreds of times.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

You should choose your camera with one thing in mind though: Eventually there will come a better and cheaper camera.

But there is no wrong choice only the one you make, and as long as you make the most of it, it will be the right one. Do your research and choose carefully, no matter which one of these cameras you end up with, you're going to get a camera that can produce pictures of high quality. If you dedicate yourself to your camera, it's like having kids. Love the strengths and learn to live with the weaknesses. The better you know your camera, the more likely you are to avoid them or even use them to your advantage.

If you plan to invest a lot of money in this system, my only recommendation is to choose a camera with 4K. The future is 4K and resolution is one thing great camera skills can't change, even though a strong storytelling can distract you from it.

 

[Mike P.]

If you're going to end up on the web, I'd argue against getting a RED. Similarly, "long term" does not translate well with digital-anything… Next year's latest Canon DSLR or Panny GH4 could end up shooting 4k raw for $600; who knows.

Were you disappointed with the Genesis/BM2.5k on the feature(s) you shot with it? The speed of a DSLR is unmatched; the minute you go RED (or any other Digital Cinema camera), your production speed will go down and hence cost more. Batteries, monitors, peripheral/support gear, upgrades (not just sensors but things like REDmags to MiniMags, monitors, etc.) end up costing tons of money. Unless you have a gig lined that will expressly pay for 4k/raw/RED, it likely is NOT worth going in that direction over renting equipment. Conversely, if you've had a bunch of clients pleased with your previous work, they'll likely still hire you again, regardless of your kit… More over, you'd likely get more future work putting that $8k-16k towards buying lunches/dinners for directors/producers to talk shop, than you would by owning your own gear.

Truth is, if you can't make a decent portfolio out of the cameras you've used thus far, just having a RED won't make your work suddenly spring off the screen. If you're trying to be perceived as a pro, you could always buy a used Sony F35 for like $5k… Also the BM4k comes with a full copy of Resolve, which is very value-added (camera cost is closer to $3k) and a skill worth learning when dealing with a raw/log workflow, which could translate to more $$ in your pocket.

 

[Nick Morrison]

The advantage of getting a Scarlet is you are buying into the RED system...you are at the first step of a camera system that includes both the Epic and Dragon (the Hollywood pedigree here is obvious...ie Peter Jackson, Fincher, Soderbergh).

You'll have hands on experience with a camera system entrenched in Hollywood, and yet firmly planted in DSLR workflow (Canon, Nikon mounts, etc). A hard combination not to grow and evolve with.

Best of luck with your choice!

 

[Grzegorz Gill]

I had a similar decision to make this past August. I went with a Scarlet, and now I plan on upgrading to an Epic X soon. Never regretted my Scarlet purchase and I'm very happy with the camera.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

BM camera doesn't look all that hot really. Very limited dynamic range and crap highlight rolloff. Only nice thing about it is no skew but that is almost never an actual real-life issue with Reds.

Sony F35 is much better camera (but more than 5K). Scarlet is leagues better. Used Red one MX also much, much better. BM doesn't even feature a histogram, an OLPF or other basic amenities. BM makes low-quality, low price, "race to the bottom" products (Resolve excepted)

 

[dio Zafi]

it's a tough question to answer…for a student and someone starting out…i would be the best dp I can be and the work will come

 

[shashbugu]

I'm looking to pull the trigger on a new camera. The two cameras I am seriously considering are the Scarlet and the Black Magic 4K Production Camera. I understand that the BM has yet to be released and have only seen 2 videos posted. (Here's 1 -- http://vimeo.com/82269515)

The price of the Black Magic being 4 grand is obviously enticing. It seems that I could get a rig up and running (body/cage/media) and an Anton Bauer battery kit for around 8 grand, and think I'd be able to use my current tripod set up given its a pretty light weight camera. With this similar idea in mind and utilizing the Red Faculty discount, I'd be able to do the same (body/media/power) for around 16 grand (roughly twice the cost). However, now I'd need a new tripod/head which for a good used one may run around 4 grand and now I'm at 20 grand. Definitely more expensive, but the idea that the Red is upgradable and viewed as one of the worlds top competing cameras seems like a safer long term investment?

Currently I would say I spend 1/3 to 1/2 the year working on features, either as a Gaffer or DP. The past few features we shot on the Genesis, Ikonoscop, and BM 2K. I personally would think a Scarlet would be a better choice for a feature than any of these camera. That being said, if producers are looking to shoot Red for a feature, I'm guessing they would opt for the Epic over the Scarlet. The other half of my work is DSLR shoots, which I've grown extremely tired/frustrated with and am hoping the purchase of a better camera will push me out of that pond. I know that owning a Red is not necessarily going to get me better/more work, but it will improve production value and I'd be able to offer a Red package over a DSLR package.

Other things I am considering is with the release of the Dragon sensor, whether this will drop the current price of the Scarlet X. Will Red start producing Scarlet Dragons at the same price they are now selling Scarlet X's for (as in the case of Apple). Another thing I am considering is that at the end of the day if most of the stuff thats being shot will wind up on the web, can you really tell the difference between Scarlet, Black Magic, 5D Magic Lantern? I'm sure this question will be quite controversial and will offend many die hard Red fanatics, but lets be honest here. After the color grade and compression, is there really a 10-15 grand difference in quality?

All things considered, I am mainly looking to purchase a camera to build a more professional portfolio of work, to be able to work with a professional camera at my own disposal, and hopefully to bring in a few more clams/year.

What are your thoughts?

(If you are looking to bag on me for comparing these cameras please refrain from posting)

Thanks

I'll try to answer in no particular order, but your questions are very valid and are similar to many others have asked. You are here to learn don't feel like you are offending anyone, just be sure to decipher the answers you get from us. Make your our answers fit your situation, location and financial requirements.

If you have been shooting on or working with a Genesis then you are in a pretty demanding market. The BMD products in my opinion are all still being developed and are not fully vetted for every situation. The Red Scarlet however is a fully functional well tested Camera. Obviously you've done your research and worked with the BMCC 2.5 to know its limitations and all the accessories you will need. Frankly there are other cameras in the scarlet price range to consider, the Sony F5 and Canon c300, c100, canon 1DC. These are all pretty solid cameras. There are very noticeable differences in camera image even if the final destination is the WeB, but as has been noted over and over again, the 5cs of cinematography trumps all sensors. That said, everyone and their mamas including myself will be buying a BMCC4k, it's a no brainer. Please if your finances are limited continously research, rent, visit rental houses and keep on with your inquiries, it's important you get a camera you can truly be fulfilled using.

 

[Dave_S]

And Scarlet will maintain its value IF a future firmware upgrade allows it to shoot 5k 24 fps which I don't see any reason why not. For EXAMPLE Sony just increased frame rates dramatically for its F55 and F5 cameras with the latest firmware.

 

[Mike Garrick]

I used the 2.5K BMCC as b cam on a job recently. Whilst all the below comments relate to the 2.5 K you will have the same issues with the 4K varaint.

This camera is not a $4K cam. You will need a host of accessories & $$$$ to get it running & shooting to a level similar to a DLSR. You will definitely need a EVF, the screen is useless outdoors .There is no histogram for exposure. When you hit auto exposure to check levels it does something weird and we couldn't trust it. I've heard some people are tethering them to Apple lappy's (another hard cost) running Ultrascopes to gain the correct info. internal battery is useless for anything other than happy snaps.

Having said that this is still a good camera if you go into it with your eyes open and understand the limitations, heck its really a $3K camera for 4K (without resolve) that also shoots raw, pro res or DNXHD with global shutter.

As a producer if your buying the camera for web than I would go BMCC but if your going to use on features/television than the BMCC ain't go to cut it no matter what you add onto it.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

And Scarlet will maintain its value IF a future firmware upgrade allows it to shoot 5k 24 fps which I don't see any reason why not. For EXAMPLE Sony just increased frame rates dramatically for its F55 and F5 cameras with the latest firmware.

Red has repeatedly said that will never happen.

As to those who talk about "the web" 1080p Youtube and Vimeo 720 are very, very nice now especially if you learn how to compress for them. Netflix approaches blu-ray quality on a good day.

The Web is just an HD video delivery format like any other, unless you're doing animated banners in tiny windows.

The web can look as good as broadcast TV, often better, and clients realize this.

It's not 2005 anymore.

 

[Julio Bautista]

As to those who talk about "the web" 1080p Youtube and Vimeo 720 are very, very nice now especially if you learn how to compress for them. Netflix approaches blu-ray quality on a good day.

The Web is just an HD video delivery format like any other, unless you're doing animated banners in tiny windows.

The web can look as good as broadcast TV, often better, and clients realize this.

It's not 2005 anymore.

Totally agree

 

[David Kellermann]

If you plan on renting out the camera, I would go for a RED Scarlet or a Sony F5.

I was in a similar situation like you last summer. I bought a RED Scarlet and am now planing to upgrade it to a Epic Dragon.

For low budget stuff, where the client has no idea of cameras or is only concerned about the budget, I would choose a BM pocket cam or a DigitalBolex.