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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet update in mid-May

Joseph Hutson said:
Last official word was "...the 2/3" Fixed/Cinema Scarlets should be here 2 months after EPIC-X...".

We have translated it to be around August/Sept because the EPIC-X Stage 2 is to be here in June/July if no more "major drama" is upon the development...
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oh for some S35 news!
 
Scarlet 2/3" is a separate program on its own schedule. Epic stages should not affect its release. S35 may be delayed until the initial sales rush for Epics is satisfied. But they are cranking up to produce as many as 7000 cameras a month, so there should not be long market delays once they are released.
 
David Rasberry said:
Scarlet 2/3" is a separate program on its own schedule. Epic stages should not affect its release. S35 may be delayed until the initial sales rush for Epics is satisfied. But they are cranking up to produce as many as 7000 cameras a month, so there should not be long market delays once they are released.
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I thought the number put out somewhere was 700 per month.
 
David Rasberry said:
Scarlet 2/3" is a separate program on its own schedule. Epic stages should not affect its release.
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I see this as a tricky obstacle for RED. Imagine a bunch of Scarlet 2/3" cameras are out and shooting before Epic is fully rolled out. Those Scarlet users will have low overheads and will be able to outprice the R1 guys for 1080p/2k work and start building up and taking away business from under the noses of R1/Epic guys, patiently waiting.

Will we see a divide between Epic and 2/3" users much like the dislike for the DSLR shooters now?

RED, in my eyes (and even though it goes against what I want personally) HAVE to take care of the R1/Epic guys first and foremost.... and the only fair way I see is to launch Scarlet when Stage 4 rolls.
 
Jim Retar said:
I see this as a tricky obstacle for RED. Imagine a bunch of Scarlet 2/3" cameras are out and shooting before Epic is fully rolled out. Those Scarlet users will have low overheads and will be able to outprice the R1 guys for 1080p/2k work and start building up and taking away business from under the noses of R1/Epic guys, patiently waiting.

Will we see a divide between Epic and 2/3" users much like the dislike for the DSLR shooters now?

RED, in my eyes (and even though it goes against what I want personally) HAVE to take care of the R1/Epic guys first and foremost.... and the only fair way I see is to launch Scarlet when Stage 4 rolls.
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The timeframe Jim mentioned is 2 months behind Epic roll out. No reason to hold up 2/3" release beyond that. Stage 2 reservations are already closed. And yes Jarred did say up to 7000 cameras per month. Scarlet and Epic are production line built cameras, not hand built like R1. They will be able to scale build quantities and camera models based on orders. I am sure initial quantities will be small, but Red should ramp up pretty quickly and it is in their best interest to do so.
 
Well, yes and no. The bigger RED One and Epic guys are going to get hit by Scarlet no matter what. It's just a matter of whether it happens now or later. After seeing the 5D Mark II episode of "House" last night, I think the bigger worry is that more and more people are going to go with Canon's DSLR solutions (and surely more after Photokina) simply for the price and availability at the moment. So, if it's just slow motion they're going after then the Scarlet is going to fit the bill for most as the B-cam for effects, at least until the S35 model comes out.

What I'm hoping the announcement is going to be at this point is an earlier release date rather than later as RED needs to make a competitive move rather than get held up with their niche top of the line models (RED One with MX should be able to hold out I think). Simply put, as far as I understand RED's sensor technology and software programming, couldn't they simply have a simultaneous release of S35 Epic and S35 Scarlet? Couldn't they simply lock out the more advanced feature set of the Epic and enable just the basic Scarlet functions, thus releasing a S35 Scarlet way ahead of time? If I've understood RED for the past year or so since the announced Scarlet 2.0 plans, aren't the Scarlet and Epic simply the same body type and sensor type anyway so as to have the same accessories across the board and with the only difference, more or less, being the different features? Well, if it's simply a matter of unchecking check boxes, then why not simply do as I've suggested and have both models now and at least have the regular S35 crowds taken care of while RED tends to their more exotic models like the 2/3", Full Frame, Medium Format, and 645?
 
Zack Birlew said:
....Simply put, as far as I understand RED's sensor technology and software programming, couldn't they simply have a simultaneous release of S35 Epic and S35 Scarlet? Couldn't they simply lock out the more advanced feature set of the Epic and enable just the basic Scarlet functions, thus releasing a S35 Scarlet way ahead of time? ....
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I've often wondered how they're going to differentiate the products if they use the same sensor and body. Locking out options is a bit tricky from a marketing pov, especially from a company like Red that seems to have a different set of business ethos. Can you really have two, essentially identical bodies, but with different "OS" loaded and have a price difference of 30k.

I'm not knocking any of it, I just wonder how it will all suss out. When there was more talk of FF sensors, that made more sense for product difference. If the Scarlet remains 2/3", then that will help as well. But a S35 Scarlet (which I really want) seems to tread on their other cameras. My guess is that Red has had long board-table discussions on how to move forward with the various product lines
 
Chris Pickle said:
I've often wondered how they're going to differentiate the products if they use the same sensor and body. Locking out options is a bit tricky from a marketing pov, especially from a company like Red that seems to have a different set of business ethos. Can you really have two, essentially identical bodies, but with different "OS" loaded and have a price difference of 30k.

I'm not knocking any of it, I just wonder how it will all suss out. When there was more talk of FF sensors, that made more sense for product difference. If the Scarlet remains 2/3", then that will help as well. But a S35 Scarlet (which I really want) seems to tread on their other cameras. My guess is that Red has had long board-table discussions on how to move forward with the various product lines
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I seriously doubt that its only a software change between the Epic and Scarlet S35. Just because they have the same sensor doesn't mean there isn't a hardware related bottleneck behind the scenes. Remember the Epic can process 1.5GP/s, (if I remember correctly.) Scarlet can not.
 
Zack Birlew said:
... Simply put, as far as I understand RED's sensor technology and software programming, couldn't they simply have a simultaneous release of S35 Epic and S35 Scarlet? Couldn't they simply lock out the more advanced feature set of the Epic and enable just the basic Scarlet functions, thus releasing a S35 Scarlet way ahead of time? If I've understood RED for the past year or so since the announced Scarlet 2.0 plans, aren't the Scarlet and Epic simply the same body type and sensor type anyway so as to have the same accessories across the board and with the only difference, more or less, being the different features? Well, if it's simply a matter of unchecking check boxes, then why not simply do as I've suggested and have both models now and at least have the regular S35 crowds taken care of while RED tends to their more exotic models like the 2/3", Full Frame, Medium Format, and 645?
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Too many "simply"'s in there my man. There is clearly little that is simple about any of this.
 
I believe the software is just about the same except for some compression options. The one big difference which has been stated many times before is the frame rates, at the high resolution to be able to do 60-100fps of raw video takes a lot of processing power. You want ramping and slow motion you pay the big bucks and get an epic, or more realistically just rent one. Don't have all that money great pick what you need the most, resolution and depth of field, or a cheaper price and higher frame rates. That's the great thing about this line of cameras by red you choose what you want, and when you want more you swap out the brain.
 
Right, I imagine its like the t2i/550d vs 7d, the 7D has 2 processors and can take stills at 8 fps. My T2i is 3.6 still fps. Epic would be a mega horsepower machine to do the frame rates, raw, 5k, that they are talking about.

Processors!

edit: you guys beat me to it!


I also agree that Scarlet is going to compete with epic now or later. even before Scarlet is released, people will skip epic to wait for it, competing. BUT, those poor unfortunate redone owners who ALSO own epic ( ;-P ) will be just fine. In the same way the MX RED ONE is now the bees knees, Epic will be vastly preferred over ( my someday in hand ) Scarlet. Its silly to think Epic users will really suffer because of scarlet.

Jeff
 
Anthony Rinaldi said:
I seriously doubt that its only a software change between the Epic and Scarlet S35. Just because they have the same sensor doesn't mean there isn't a hardware related bottleneck behind the scenes. Remember the Epic can process 1.5GP/s, (if I remember correctly.) Scarlet can not.
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I think you're probably right, but I was talking from a broader marketing sense. The marketing ... "optics" if you will. I know that from a technical sense, high frame rates require much more horse power. I completely 100% understand. But maybe that difference will be lost on many. It's one thing for very savvy users here to understand, but I can at least acknowledge the possibility that it will seem odd to others. Say the Scarlet S35 does 60fps and the Epic 250fps and the price difference is 30k.

I know Jim has said many times that frame rates cost money. I suspect that Red is hoping that they can do a good job of educating the customer on that fact. I bet this is a big topic of discussion at Red HQ--how to differentiate the product lines if they share the same chip.
 
Chris

Right on man, the cost of FPS is huge. And whether or not the general market knows this, the professional one does for sure. Whether FILM or DIGITAL is an exponential cost growth. And production growth (with lights, etc). Case and point is the Phantom system.

Jeff
 
I don't think that is going to even be an issue for most people because the epic is not an option. If you have the money get em all or whatever you want, if money is an issue then it's between s35 and 2/3". Rental houses and studios/production companies will buy the majority of the epics and cover their cost of development (most likely), as well as the current red one users. I don't think they are going to have their own cameras competing with each other, they cover vastly different markets, all of which I believe will have a high demand for one or many of these cameras. I feel that the customers are going to be learning about these things much faster than most realize, considering these aren't handycam's they are real production equipment and for the most part the people working with them will be students amateurs and professionals, all should be able to understand what they are really paying for.
 
Well, yes and no. The bigger RED One and Epic guys are going to get hit by Scarlet no matter what. It's just a matter of whether it happens now or later. After seeing the 5D Mark II episode of "House" last night, I think the bigger worry is that more and more people are going to go with Canon's DSLR solutions (and surely more after Photokina) simply for the price and availability at the moment. So, if it's just slow motion they're going after then the Scarlet is going to fit the bill for most as the B-cam for effects, at least until the S35 model comes out.
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When you get to major series production budgets, camera cost per se is not much of an issue. They didn't use DSLR's on House because they were cheap, the camera happened to fit the show's production style and the small form factor was a plus for the tight sets.

We don't all necessarily want to shoot 35mm sized sensors. There are many production applications where 2/3" will be the first choice and picking a DSLR sized 2/3" camera that is an uncompromised motion production camera with exceptional features over consumer video from a still camera with multiple compromises will be a no brainer.
 
David Rasberry said:
When you get to major series production budgets, camera cost per se is not much of an issue. They didn't use DSLR's on House because they were cheap, the camera happened to fit the show's production style and the small form factor was a plus for the tight sets.

We don't all necessarily want to shoot 35mm sized sensors. There are many production applications where 2/3" will be the first choice and picking a DSLR sized 2/3" camera that is an uncompromised motion production camera with exceptional features over consumer video from a still camera with multiple compromises will be a no brainer.
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True, but the point is that there might be the possibility of an early S35 model release if my hypothesis is correct. Unlike the 2/3" model, the S35 Epic and S35 Scarlet share the same sensor on paper.
 
Zack Birlew said:
True, but the point is that there might be the possibility of an early S35 model release if my hypothesis is correct.
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Hehe. Not happening...if it did, RED would comPLETely take me by surprise. We should just hope for an S35 Scarlet by the end of of 2010. That's not being pessimistic...just trying to bring in a bit of reality here.
 
Zack Birlew said:
True, but the point is that there might be the possibility of an early S35 model release if my hypothesis is correct. Unlike the 2/3" model, the S35 Epic and S35 Scarlet share the same sensor on paper.
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As a devils advocate, wouldn't the S35 Scarlet possibly cannablize the Epic with such a close release date?
 
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