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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet to EPIC Upgrade

Eric Santiago

Eric Santiago

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Show of hands who's done this?

How many of you are BT-Scarlets like I am?

I haven't really been thinking about the upgrade of late since this beauty has been doing wonders for me at my early stage in film life :)

Should I start a paper-route soon?

Is this going to end (upgrade path) soon?

Was there a poll that I missed on how many upgraded?
 
i upgraded my scarlet to an epic-x in april, and it's a phenomenal upgrade. i don't know how much of it is just placebo effect (outside of the higher frame rates and compression, of course) but it feels like an entirely different (and better) camera.

i loved my scarlet and did some great work with it, but the epic feels like a new experience.

you're definitely not getting as much quantifiable bang for your buck for that $9500, but i wouldn't take it back.
 
Did it last September. Loved it. I had fun with my Scarlet. I'm hooked with my Epic. Looking forward to my Dragon upgrade (which I ordered soon after getting the Epic). I'll say it has been a well worth investment.
 
Joe Minuni said:
I'll be doing it as soon as I can, waiting on some things to wrap up before I can send it out

I've never been unhappy with my mx, so after struggling between going scarlet-d or epic-mx I finally have decided to go epic-mx. Think it's the best balance for what I do.
Click to expand...

This is exactly my approach and attitude as well.

I see that Dragon (in general) seems to have an edge in rendering skin tones and in dynamic range. But the higher frame rates of Epic-X are attractive and gives me the opportunity to use HDRx to extend DR. And I am still OK with shooting 4K and 5K. Plus it keeps the door open to move to Epic Dragon.

It's a tough decision but a nice dilemma to have. :smiley:
 
;And don't forget rental value too. For each time I rent out my scarlet, I have already received and denied at least 2 calls asking for Epic. It rents out faster and commands more value. You got double advantage that makes it a more viable business investment. You might think having Scarlet D will neutralize that, but I bet that will only hold till RED churns through their Epic D upgrades. Once both Scarlet Ds and Epic D are all in the field, the relationship is back, Scarlet is almost always "perceived" especially by producers, as the John Snow, good but still not pure iron born. Unless of course, you totally are not into rentals or owner options.
That said, no regret ever owning a Scarlet except that I should have gone Scarlet -> Epic MX -> D route instead of the Scarlet -> Epic D route I chose last June. It pains me bone deep each time I remember I could have chosen the other route and be earning more but then, all I thought was Epic D will be available last Dec.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
This is exactly my approach and attitude as well.

I see that Dragon (in general) seems to have an edge in rendering skin tones and in dynamic range. But the higher frame rates of Epic-X are attractive and gives me the opportunity to use HDRx to extend DR. And I am still OK with shooting 4K and 5K. Plus it keeps the door open to move to Epic Dragon.

It's a tough decision but a nice dilemma to have. :smiley:
Click to expand...
+1.
 
Every time I worry about skin tones from the MX I watch Rust and Bone :)

The Scarlet I have now will be the last Scarlet I own. Beautiful camera but ultimately I think I have lost money hand over fist with it. Nobody has ever been interested in renting a Scarlet, sadly, and I don't see that chaning with Scarlet Dragon.

Epic then Epic Dragon all the way.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
But the higher frame rates of Epic-X are attractive and gives me the opportunity to use HDRx to extend DR. And I am still OK with shooting 4K and 5K.
Click to expand...
I totally understand how you think. But what you say there can be done with Scarlet Dragon too. ;) Remember, it shoots 5k with up to 48fps (and you probably don't have to use HDRx to extend the DR).

I think Scarlet-X/D has a better position than Scarlet-X/MX. The gap got smaller. For everything except slowmo you can easily replace a EPIC-X/MX with a Scarlet-X/D, and you would get the advantage of the better sensor and newer chipset. Scarlet-X/D now can deliver 5k for clean 4k-output, which is one of the most important changes. This alone should give Scarlet a higher value on the market.

But it can even shoot HFR @ 5k (it would have been enough for Hobbit). It also has way more fps @ 4k/3k than Scarlet-X/MX and allows more usable highres-slowmo-shots with that.

I found it difficult to choose between EPIC-X/MX and Scarlet-X/D, but when i analyzed my real needs for high fps, i came finally to the conclusion to go Scarlet-X/D now and start saving up for a EPIC-X/D right after that.

So, i finally placed my order for the upgrade to Scarlet-X/D. It was a tough decision. Everything else, higher fps, path to EPIC-X/D, better rental value, agreed, those are good arguments to go EPIC-X/MX now. I have played with the same thoughts for a loooooooong time. ;)
 
Maik Müller said:
I totally understand how you think. But what you say there can be done with Scarlet Dragon too. ;) Remember, it shoots 5k with up to 48fps (and you probably don't have to use HDRx to extend the DR).

I think Scarlet-X/D has a better position than Scarlet-X/MX. The gap got smaller. For everything except slowmo you can easily replace a EPIC-X/MX with a Scarlet-X/D, and you would get the advantage of the better sensor and newer chipset. Scarlet-X/D now can deliver 5k for clean 4k-output, which is one of the most important changes. This alone should give Scarlet a higher value on the market.

But it can even shoot HFR @ 5k (it would have been enough for Hobbit). It also has way more fps @ 4k/3k than Scarlet-X/MX and allows more usable highres-slowmo-shots with that.

I found it difficult to choose between EPIC-X/MX and Scarlet-X/D, but when i analyzed my real needs for high fps, i came finally to the conclusion to go Scarlet-X/D now and start saving up for a EPIC-X/D right after that.

So, i finally placed my order for the upgrade to Scarlet-X/D. It was a tough decision. Everything else, higher fps, path to EPIC-X/D, better rental value, agreed, those are good arguments to go EPIC-X/MX now. I have played with the same thoughts for a loooooooong time. ;)
Click to expand...

If compression ratio matters to you than take a look at these charts. One is the maximum frame rate for a given resolution and one is what you can get with 8:1 compression. I understand why RED didn't publish this information before as it doesn't really look all that attractive.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...egin-to-ship&p=1373769&viewfull=1#post1373769

And the Scarlet (DRAGON or not) will never rent as well as an EPIC and I believe we will see the exact same situation as we have for the past three years with the MX chip Scarlet/EPIC relationship.
 
Maik-

I used to think that way. I went the EPIC-X route mainly because last September I never envisioned Scarlet-D becoming available this June. However, not only have I absolutely loved the Epic, but what I wasn't expecting is how my approach to filming changed because of the FOV (crop) and FPS that the Epic brought to the table. Trust me, it changes your approach. I also got clients that demanded an Epic, so since September that upgrade has already paid for itself.

Yes, SD at 5k 48fps is nice, but after playing with the big dog I just can't go back...but that's me.

Maik Müller said:
I totally understand how you think. But what you say there can be done with Scarlet Dragon too. ;) Remember, it shoots 5k with up to 48fps (and you probably don't have to use HDRx to extend the DR).

I think Scarlet-X/D has a better position than Scarlet-X/MX. The gap got smaller. For everything except slowmo you can easily replace a EPIC-X/MX with a Scarlet-X/D, and you would get the advantage of the better sensor and newer chipset. Scarlet-X/D now can deliver 5k for clean 4k-output, which is one of the most important changes. This alone should give Scarlet a higher value on the market.

But it can even shoot HFR @ 5k (it would have been enough for Hobbit). It also has way more fps @ 4k/3k than Scarlet-X/MX and allows more usable highres-slowmo-shots with that.

I found it difficult to choose between EPIC-X/MX and Scarlet-X/D, but when i analyzed my real needs for high fps, i came finally to the conclusion to go Scarlet-X/D now and start saving up for a EPIC-X/D right after that.

So, i finally placed my order for the upgrade to Scarlet-X/D. It was a tough decision. Everything else, higher fps, path to EPIC-X/D, better rental value, agreed, those are good arguments to go EPIC-X/MX now. I have played with the same thoughts for a loooooooong time. ;)
Click to expand...
 
From my POV the EPIC is best for my shooting style but not a good business move at the moment.

I have access to DRAGON rentals (Jeremy Torrie has two I believe) locally so no need to go that route.

The EPIC could help me with future projects but for now (and all summer) my Scarlet is perfect :)
 
William Robinette said:
If compression ratio matters to you than take a look at these charts. One is the maximum frame rate for a given resolution and one is what you can get with 8:1 compression. I understand why RED didn't publish this information before as it doesn't really look all that attractive.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...egin-to-ship&p=1373769&viewfull=1#post1373769

And the Scarlet (DRAGON or not) will never rent as well as an EPIC and I believe we will see the exact same situation as we have for the past three years with the MX chip Scarlet/EPIC relationship.
Click to expand...

Those charts are indeed a bit strange. To me they look la bit more like a "safe" place-holder than a final, complete table of everything a Scarlet-X/D can do. I agree, i expected a little lower compression for 24fps, because Scarlet-X/MX can do better.

We will see. Very soon i think. First Scarlet-X/D's have arrived at their owners.

Renting my gear isn't my thing. I don't think i'll jump into that business. But if i would, then yes, EPIC all the way. Sadly i think you are right, the situation will be nearly the same. Rarely people will look close enough before they rule it out. So Scarlet-X/D will probably end up being more underrated than the MX-version.

Marcos Montenegro said:
Maik-

I used to think that way. I went the EPIC-X route mainly because last September I never envisioned Scarlet-D becoming available this June. However, not only have I absolutely loved the Epic, but what I wasn't expecting is how my approach to filming changed because of the FOV (crop) and FPS that the Epic brought to the table. Trust me, it changes your approach. I also got clients that demanded an Epic, so since September that upgrade has already paid for itself.

Yes, SD at 5k 48fps is nice, but after playing with the big dog I just can't go back...but that's me.
Click to expand...

Understand you totally, you did the right move back then in September. Today, i think i should have done the same.
The wider FOV is one of the biggest arguments for me, you hit a nerve. But 5k on Dragon is already wider than 4k on MX and 5k on MX doesn't give you SOOOO MUCH more.

5k on Dragon is close to Super35 and a few EPIC/Dragon-testers were talking about shooting 5k instead of always going 6k, that made me a bit more safe. I think Phil was one of them, but i heard the same thing from other people.

So for me, it's a choice between EPIC-X/D and Scarlet-X/D. EPIC-X would have been great last year, but now i prefer to get the newer sensor as soon as possible. ;)

Oh speaking about Phil and FOV:

phfx_SensorChart2014.jpg
 
Another thing that appeals to me in the Scarlet to Epic trade-up is the fact that the entire camera is replaced with a new unit. My Scarlet has been babied and has relatively low hours, it has always worked flawlessly, but I just feel that "starting over" with a new camera body is a plus. And, of course, I still have the option of upgrading it to Epic Dragon.
 
How long did it take?

How long did it take?

Hey Scarlet owners who now have epics,
I sent my scarlet in last week and was told on monday they placed the invoice in for processing of the new epic and my credit towards the epic was all good.
It's thursday and no shipping notice yet. How long did it take you all? I know a new epic can be made in 2-3 days.
 
Oh last week they finished the scarlet and it was fine. They told me Monday they placed the order but nothing else from them with shipping etc?
 
Maik Müller said:
I totally understand how you think. But what you say there can be done with Scarlet Dragon too. ;) Remember, it shoots 5k with up to 48fps (and you probably don't have to use HDRx to extend the DR).

I think Scarlet-X/D has a better position than Scarlet-X/MX. The gap got smaller. For everything except slowmo you can easily replace a EPIC-X/MX with a Scarlet-X/D, and you would get the advantage of the better sensor and newer chipset. Scarlet-X/D now can deliver 5k for clean 4k-output, which is one of the most important changes. This alone should give Scarlet a higher value on the market.

But it can even shoot HFR @ 5k (it would have been enough for Hobbit). It also has way more fps @ 4k/3k than Scarlet-X/MX and allows more usable highres-slowmo-shots with that.

I found it difficult to choose between EPIC-X/MX and Scarlet-X/D, but when i analyzed my real needs for high fps, i came finally to the conclusion to go Scarlet-X/D now and start saving up for a EPIC-X/D right after that.

So, i finally placed my order for the upgrade to Scarlet-X/D. It was a tough decision. Everything else, higher fps, path to EPIC-X/D, better rental value, agreed, those are good arguments to go EPIC-X/MX now. I have played with the same thoughts for a loooooooong time. ;)
Click to expand...

No, because who would rent a camera that is exactly the same as another camera, except in some ways (however slight or not ) crippled, especially when a standard rate for that other, slightly, or more than slightly, better camera is $750 a day? I'll tell you who: people with no money, and those people are not the kinds of clients anyone can build their business with.
 
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