Scarlet S35 is now...

[AnthonyFlores]

Jim,

Call the Scarlets whatever you think makes sense. As long as you still deliver a model that is close to the 3k price tag originally envisioned. (I know it is going to have a higher price tag than than 3k, but with functionality to offset the increase.) For those of us that would love to have an Epic, but simply don't have the budget, we are holding out hope that we to will be able to purchase the revolutionary camera system at a price that us less funded professionals can afford.

Hate to burst your bubble, but the S35 Epic Light or Scarlet S35 or whatever it's called is not going to end up anywhere near $3000. Jim just said the price was getting bumped -- so look for perhaps a $10,000+ brain, plus accessories. Throw in an SSD, SSD drives, LCD, Redgrip + Battery and a Red Pro Zoom and you're probably $25,000+ ...

However, it seems like the Scarlet 2/3 Fixed will still arrive below $10,000 for a total shooting package. I think Jim last said HDR was going to push it up $1000 ... so probably $6,000 -- which I think includes the basic accessories needed to shoot.

Again, so much has changed lately, I think we are all waiting for the final shipping prices on all this.

Anthony

 

[Alex Sutherland]

If director Pedro Costas -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Costa - could shoot his Fontainhas Trilogy in nothing but DV (or a little more), I have every confidence the RED Scarlet will be nothing less than an artist's working tool. Period.

Well, this is a silly argument and one that I hear ALL THE F'n TIME in photojournalism circles.

"Well, the best photographer can make better images with a pinhole camera than a slightly weaker photographer with xyz-best-camera," says the old-school guy who hasn't kept up with the times.

That used to be true when everyone was made equal by the limited quality of the film stock they had access to. It's not true now and I'd be willing to challenge anyone who said otherwise to a day in the field with such a setup.

Pedro Costa has a VERY unique shooting style and has carved his niche with gimmicks like shooting an entire film without a moving camera. Good for him, but it can't be reproduced by someone else without being criticized (rightly) as an imposture and a copy cat.

Anyway, my point is that being able to shoot an arthouse film entirely with DV or doing it without moving your camera may satisfy some film critics and festival judges but it is also really going to limit you when it comes pleasing a client base who demands something much more sleek and polished.

The fixed Scarlet is going to be awesome for a lot of applications, but the entire notion that anyone who's creative enough could use it to do anything they wanted is really a bunch of hogwash considering the current market. It has some very measurable shortcomings, but it's an awesome camera. I'll probably wind up with one or two.

Not attacking you, Joseph. You just pushed a button. I may have read you wrong.

 

[Tashi Hope]

Scarlet 8X Fixed is nearly done. I like it. So does everyone here.

Jim

As an indie film-maker in New Zealand, this is the answer to my prayers!
Thanks Jim, can't wait. :thumbsup:

 

[Kris Anderson]

Well, this is a silly argument and one that I hear ALL THE F'n TIME in photojournalism circles.

"Well, the best photographer can make better images with a pinhole camera than a slightly weaker photographer with xyz-best-camera," says the old-school guy who hasn't kept up with the times.

That used to be true when everyone was made equal by the limited quality of the film stock they had access to. It's not true now and I'd be willing to challenge anyone who said otherwise to a day in the field with such a setup.

Pedro Costa has a VERY unique shooting style and has carved his niche with gimmicks like shooting an entire film without a moving camera. Good for him, but it can't be reproduced by someone else without being criticized (rightly) as an imposture and a copy cat.

Anyway, my point is that being able to shoot an arthouse film entirely with DV or doing it without moving your camera may satisfy some film critics and festival judges but it is also really going to limit you when it comes pleasing a client base who demands something much more sleek and polished.

The fixed Scarlet is going to be awesome for a lot of applications, but the entire notion that anyone who's creative enough could use it to do anything they wanted is really a bunch of hogwash considering the current market. It has some very measurable shortcomings, but it's an awesome camera. I'll probably wind up with one or two.

Not attacking you, Joseph. You just pushed a button. I may have read you wrong.

Alex, I don't know you but I think you're way off base with your reply.

The point being made was that *if* a feature can be made with a DV camera and it can be somewhat successful, then for those that can only afford cameras in the DV realm, the Scarlet will be a Godsend and an invaluable tool.

Please don't dismiss someone else's style of making films just because you don't agree with it. To me it comes across as elitist and condescending. Of course, I could be very wrong and could have misunderstood you entirely. I hope that's the case.

As a general comment, not directed at anyone..... We simply don't know who the next "big thing" will be but one thing is certain, the tools on offer here make it a lot more accessible than it ever has been. Anyone who considers themselves a "gatekeeper" of the arts, deciding who can come in and who can't, is deluded and on the fast track to extinction.

Of course, as with everything on the intranets.... it's just an opinion and YMMV.

 

[Alex Sutherland]

Alex, I don't know you but I think you're way off base with your reply.

The point being made was that *if* a feature can be made with a DV camera and it can be somewhat successful, then for those that can only afford cameras in the DV realm, the Scarlet will be a Godsend and an invaluable tool.

Please don't dismiss someone else's style of making films just because you don't agree with it. To me it comes across as elitist and condescending. Of course, I could be very wrong and could have misunderstood you entirely. I hope that's the case.

As a general comment, not directed at anyone..... We simply don't know who the next "big thing" will be but one thing is certain, the tools on offer here make it a lot more accessible than it ever has been. Anyone who considers themselves a "gatekeeper" of the arts, deciding who can come in and who can't, is deluded and on the fast track to extinction.

I'm probably projecting something into this conversation that doesn't belong. I don't mean to dismiss anyone's style of filmmaking. Just about anyone on this board is better equipped to make that judgement than myself, coming to the industry fairly recently as I have.

You and I both agree that the Scarlet fixed is going to be a great tool. Depending from which school of filmmaking you come, the advantages of the camera's narrow footprint is going to be hugely beneficial. I'm guessing I just read you wrong.

 

[Alex Sutherland]

For the record, I'm a big Pedro Costa fan.

 

[Sean Lee]

The narrative cinema genre can have just as much need as any other genre for a variety of cameras of different sizes and functions -- look at "Secretariat", which used Olympus PEN cameras for some of the horse racing footage. Look at all the movies that use the Phantom for high-speed work.

Cinema since it began has always needed a large and varied toolset. Even in the pre-digital days there have been sound cameras, MOS cameras, crash cameras, high-speed cameras, cameras of different film formats, etc. It's no different today with digital and many narrative filmmakers are going to find a use for the fixed-lens Scarlet just as filmmakers of the past would have used an Eyemo or ARRI 2C, or a Super-16 camera, etc. for select shots in a 35mm feature.

There's nothing about shooting only narrative cinema that makes you think that you'll will never need a very small, highly mobile camera!

I agree David but that also suggests that the 2/3 Fixed is only capable of a specific role in narrative cinema where it's main use as a very small and highly mobile camera is its only dominant advantage?

 

[Steve Gibby]

The narrative cinema genre can have just as much need as any other genre for a variety of cameras of different sizes and functions -- look at "Secretariat", which used Olympus PEN cameras for some of the horse racing footage. Look at all the movies that use the Phantom for high-speed work.

Cinema since it began has always needed a large and varied toolset. Even in the pre-digital days there have been sound cameras, MOS cameras, crash cameras, high-speed cameras, cameras of different film formats, etc. It's no different today with digital and many narrative filmmakers are going to find a use for the fixed-lens Scarlet just as filmmakers of the past would have used an Eyemo or ARRI 2C, or a Super-16 camera, etc. for select shots in a 35mm feature.

There's nothing about shooting only narrative cinema that makes you think that you'll will never need a very small, highly mobile camera!

Good points Dave. You work in narrative, and I don't, so I respect that insight. As you know, I work in about every other genre and style but narrative, thus the insight I posted. We all necessarily filter our views through our experience, so naturally mine will be somewhat different than yours. But both of us, being longtime motion media professionals who work a lot, read a lot, write a lot about production, and are aware of the equipment and styles used peripherally to what we use. Though by choice I don't work in narrative cinema per se, I'm nevertheless aware of the cameras you noted, their usage, and can see that your points are valid.

My comment that you quoted was merely offered in general terms about narrative cinema. Yes, the examples you raised point to the occasional use in cinema of smaller cameras as specialty cameras (b-cam, crash cam, high speed, mobility-needs, etc.) - but I'd assert that the percentage of use of such cameras (and thus potentially a fixed lens Scarlet) will be far lower in narrative cinema production than the percentage of use of such cameras as a fixed lens Scarlet in non-hardlined EFP production - and more significantly, there are far more non-hardlined EFP productions each year worldwide than narrative cinema productions. Those two factors lead me to believe that the non-hardlined EFP market for the fixed lens Scarlet is significantly larger than the narrative cinema market for the fixed lens Scarlet. That said, I think many budget-challenged productions will figure out ways to trick out a fixed lens Scarlet for a-camera use on smaller scale narrative productions - but IMO that will be the exception, rather than a situation of widespread usage as an a-camera in narrative. IMO in shooting style of mobile non-hardlined EFP, with its diversity of genres, display requirements (cable TV, expos, business, etc.), and camera usage techniques (eye focusing by operator, quick exposure, infrequent use of MB & FF, etc.) make fixed lens cameras much more utilitarian there than in the shooting style of narrative cinema.

The above said, I do believe that enterprising and open minded narrative cinema people will use a fixed lens Scarlet whenever and wherever it makes sense - and why not - horses for courses. The sum total of our observations strikes one unified point though - the fixed lens Scarlet will be used widely by professionals in many styles and genres of motion media production, with the added bonus of being able to pull excellent quality digital stills from the work.

Fun times ahead to be had with these new tools...

 

[Kris Anderson]

I'm probably projecting something into this conversation that doesn't belong. I don't mean to dismiss anyone's style of filmmaking. Just about anyone on this board is better equipped to make that judgement than myself, coming to the industry fairly recently as I have.

You and I both agree that the Scarlet fixed is going to be a great tool. Depending from which school of filmmaking you come, the advantages of the camera's narrow footprint is going to be hugely beneficial. I'm guessing I just read you wrong.

It's cool. Hard to get people's tone on a forum... can make all the difference to understanding. I get where you're coming from.

 

[Alex Sutherland]

Huggles.

 

[gbalaji]

Smart move by Red to have EPIC Light / Other models instead of multiple products with almost same features and confusing the customer. Single brand name & multiple variants of it good for marketing as well as customer understanding.

The best example is Apple with their iPhone & iPad.

 

[Mark Pedersen]

For what it's worth

Epic and Epic X

The machined doesn't really need a name.....those that own one will know it, and probably everyone who handles one too......but if a differentiator is needed, tag on 'Ltd' or 'LE' to the X.

Makes a lot of sense. Simple, clear.

M

 

[Joseph Podlesnik]

"Well, the best photographer can make better images with a pinhole camera than a slightly weaker photographer with xyz-best-camera," says the old-school guy who hasn't kept up with the times.

Why stop there? Why not build the cinematic equivalent of a straw man argument with a Fisher-Price Pixel/Vision camera?

Pedro Costa has a VERY unique shooting style and has carved his niche with gimmicks like shooting an entire film without a moving camera. Good for him, but it can't be reproduced by someone else without being criticized (rightly) as an imposture and a copy cat.

Static shots with little or no camera movement in a film are construed by many as simple "cinematic basics", likened to restrictively using only shading, say, ala Georges Seurat (or its opposite: using strictly line) in drawing, or using one canvas for a painting and not multiple canvases. Surely making an only tonal drawing needn't necessarily be a direct copy of Seurat, as many, many other draughtspersons have managed this.

...my point is that being able to shoot an arthouse film entirely with DV or doing it without moving your camera may satisfy some film critics and festival judges but it is also really going to limit you when it comes pleasing a client base who demands something much more sleek and polished.

What if one's cinematic intentions don't include commercial clients? As listed by many others on this forum, the Scarlet fixed will more than be up for the task for various types of projects.

The fixed Scarlet is going to be awesome for a lot of applications, but the entire notion that anyone who's creative enough could use it to do anything they wanted is really a bunch of hogwash considering the current market.

To a point this is true, say, with some of the limitations of the fixed lens (surely not with the camera's frames rates though). For the fixed lens, as others have mentioned, there are focal length converter/adapter solutions. The Scarlet fixed will be a superb cinema tool.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

I'm sure this has been addressed before ... but what's the focal range and speed of the fixed lens on the Scarlet? I imagine since it's 2/3 it will accommodate a fairly wide focal range -- but also I think whether it's 2.8, 2.0 or 1.4 will affect people's perception and utility.

I would be seriously impressed if Red got it to 2.0 or 1.4 ....

Anthony

 

[Emanuel A.]

I came from same film school (and film department, BTW) as Pedro (Costa), I met him several times, we both spoke about moviemaking a few others (I remember first time he knew in a certain occasion he was auspiciously quoted abroad as one of the big promises, through my own mouth more than a dozen years ago), besides to share the same motherland, we have some friends and colleagues that work with him, and something I can tell you:

Even if he can take advantage of the 1/3" sensor size in order to avoid a focus puller, he has just embraced that format for price-wise reasons (after a well succeed career shooting 35mm film) and freedom (read, to stay clear of expenses including film stock, processing, developing, workflow, etc). As light as possible. The smaller crew the better.

He's not the type of shooter to cheer the technology as it is often used in these forums. Or pricey gear.

Again, as a true artist, he practices a spartan style of shooting. He avoids the use of expensive gear as much as possible. It wouldn't surprise me if he'd rather shoot on any DSLR with all the flaws we know than any Epic for reasons of budget. Scarlet S35 has been a dream in midway, hope not irremediably lost.

 

[Robert Aldrich]

Excuse me for mentioning this format, but I've often thought there should be a 4/3 version of RED or Scarlet, something that combines the 24P and depth-of-field quality everyone wants, with the quality any broke, aspiring student could get hold of!

That would put any film student (the future of filmmaking, according to their teachers) (and there are a lot of these) in the RED camp and wanting the next camera that does it better. To hell with the big players, they only want the big bucks by giving you almost nothing to start with. Why not give them something they can use now in a professional format, (not a still camera DSLR with no easy controls) that looks like any DVD feature on Netflix? 40 foot screen quality can come later. It seems to me that would be so easy to do!

 

[Emanuel A.]

Pedro,

Se, porventura, passares por aqui, deixa o teu testemunho. Há aqui quem te devia escutar a propósito (Abraço).

It is not the first time your name is mentioned in these same boards. If for any reason you'll read these lines, contribute here please. More than nice, it would be useful to listen you. There is here who'd need to hear your voice on the subject matter.

E.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

Just because you can shoot a whole movie on a HDV cam and stil become a financial succes, doesn't mean it will become a visual succes. I'm all in for the 'story is king', but what about commercials, coorporate movies, music videos and others (can't really think of others). Maybe then, you couldn't just use a HDV, if you want your next job. Realistically these are the types of work that in most cases will pay for the camera, if you’re not just shooting for your own pleasure.

And let's be honest here, even though this forum offers extreme amounts of creative skills, none of us have been that extreme kind of succes yet (to my knowledge), and to say it is good enough for this person, suggest everybody could do with a lesser camera, which isn’t the case.

 

[Ajit_AP]

Hope this name change does not equal another price increase. I've been saving up for a couple of long years. Can't wait for Jim's signature to switch from:

""Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

to:

"Ok, you can now believe what I say."

 

[Shane Betts]

In case you guys missed it, this was shot with a Scarlet 8X Fixed.

Where did you find this? Can you please point me to the original post? I'd love to know more - like is this a stills frame or a grab from motion? Thanks.