Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet Predictions Revisited

Lawrence Bansbach said:
Correct. SMPTE 292M, a.k.a. HD-SDI, is 4:2:2. SMPTE 372M, dual-channel HD-SDI, supports up to 12-bit 4:4:4, as does SMPTE 424M/425M (3G SDI).
Click to expand...

True, but how many sub 10k cameras have the higher standard hardware, or are likely too? Its relatively expensive to pipeline those kinds of data rates. The price difference with Canon's new XF camcorders is $1300 to add 292m with the pro version.
There is nothing wrong with 292m, it can support 1080p up to 30fps. Very high quality transport stream and 4:2:2 uncompressed is way ahead of common codecs for potential image quality. Then you have to add an outboard recorder with enough quality potential to make it worthwhile. So the price goes up by several K at least for that solution.
For a $6k target price how much hardware can Panny squeeze into the AF100? P2 is out for instance.
Don't get me wrong, I find the AF100 potentially a very appealing camera for its price range, and I love the m4/3 format. If it can record continuously up to the capacity of its media with image quality on par with a hacked GH1, it will be a formidable contender in the prosumer market. Overall significantly cheaper than a Scarlet Cinema package equipped with a similar feature set, EVF, LCD, I/O module, etc. But still only HD video.
 
I think the best thing to do is just wait, and quit speculating. Remember, a watch pot never boils.

The Scarlet will be out when the Scarlet will be out. What will be, will be.

If the delay releasing Scarlet allows the HDSLR competition to come up with something that equals or beats it, then that's just the way it is. And, Canon may just be the one.

Competition is a good thing, and keeps things from getting out of hand.
 
There's rumors of a new Canon video oriented DSLR being announced soon. Articulating screen, better video scaling, ect... Bottom line is Scarlet needs to be s35. Yes, you can make a decent image out of 2/3" chip but s35 is where the money is. Lenses for 2/3" are much more difficult to find... Red mini-primes will be useless on any other camera... DR and low-light performance are worse, even if it is a MX sensor, it's not going to look like a MX Red One or Epic. (hopefully I'm wrong here... BTW, what is the proposed pixel density of Scarlet?) If Scarlet stays 2/3", it'll be a great VFX cam, but people will probably be sticking with the DSLR's and the new larger sensor cameras for 90% of their filmmaking needs.
 
So I was looking at the speculation about the AF100 on dvxuser and someone asked why the AF100 isn't 4:2:2.

Barry Green's answer included a statement to the effect that Scarlet is just barely over 4:2:0.

I respect Barry Green tremendously. Does anyone know why he would say this about Scarlet? Maybe this is one of the many old arguments I've missed, so if you can direct me to that discussion it would be appreciated.
 
Last edited:
Steve Wake said:
So I was looking at the speculation about the AF100 on dvxuser and someone asked why the AF100 isn't 4:2:2.

Barry Green's answer included a statement to the effect that Scarlet is just barely over 4:2:0.

I respect Barry Green tremendously. Does anyone know why he would say this about Scarlet? Maybe this is one of the many old arguments I've missed, so if you can direct me to that discussion it would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

4:2:0, 4:2:2:, 4:4:4 are color encoding standards for different video formats. They don't apply to a raw camera image file whether still or motion. In post one can potentially convert the raw image file into any encoded video format or any color space.
The AF100 is supposed to record AVCHD, a 4:2:0 encoded format.
 
I can understand some people's disappointment in how long it's taken for Scarlet to come out. The problem is that Red let the word out over 2 years ago, and we've been waiting ever since. The other major camera companies don't say anything until right before release, within several months.

At this point Scarlet is still way ahead of the competition regarding price/features, but the longer it takes to get released the more time everyone else has to catch up. I say mid to late 2011 as well. Anyway, I'm focused on other projects, not waiting on Scarlet before I can shoot something. But I'll be ready to buy whenever they do get released =)
 
Steve Wake said:
So I was looking at the speculation about the AF100 on dvxuser and someone asked why the AF100 isn't 4:2:2.

Barry Green's answer included a statement to the effect that Scarlet is just barely over 4:2:0.

I respect Barry Green tremendously. Does anyone know why he would say this about Scarlet? Maybe this is one of the many old arguments I've missed, so if you can direct me to that discussion it would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

He's gone on in that same thread to quantify his answer a bit, also referencing Graeme. Really, it's not about Scarlet. It's about Bayer pattern sensors and the inherent method of luma and chroma sampling in relation to resolution and theoretical/practical limits.

IMHO, the X:X:X format doesn't really make sense to apply to RAW. Just enjoy the latitude afforded by the format and the sensor. In practice, I think many find it to be superior to be 4:2:0 standards.
 
What troubles me most is not how long Scarlet 2/3 will take to come out, but how long Scarlet S35 will take.

RED will most likely keep the releases of EPIC S35 and Scarlet S35 apart enough to allow EPIC to sell. If they release them too close together people will probably find more interesting getting two Scarlets instead of an EPIC to shoot 3D.

So Scarlet S35 is looking more and more like a 2012 release... maybe mid-2012. Damn.

I sure hope I'm wrong.
 
Last edited:
Bryce O said:
Bottom line is Scarlet needs to be s35. Yes, you can make a decent image out of 2/3" chip but s35 is where the money is. Lenses for 2/3" are much more difficult to find... Red mini-primes will be useless on any other camera... DR and low-light performance are worse, even if it is a MX sensor, it's not going to look like a MX Red One or Epic. (hopefully I'm wrong here... BTW, what is the proposed pixel density of Scarlet?) If Scarlet stays 2/3", it'll be a great VFX cam, but people will probably be sticking with the DSLR's and the new larger sensor cameras for 90% of their filmmaking needs.
Click to expand...

There is an S35 Scarlet in the works. It just won't be as cheap as the 2/3" version and will be more limited in its features, especially frame rates.
Personally I prefer the 2/3" format for general production work. The availability of compact fast high quality broad range zooms renders primes unnecessary for most shooting and makes for very efficient and compact field packages. There are certainly enough 16mm/s16mm film and 2/3" video lenses out there match any potential need. It is an incredibly popular production format.
According to Jim and Jarred, the differences between 2/3" and S35 MX as far as sensitivity and dynamic range are slight.
 
Michael Olsen said:
He's gone on in that same thread to quantify his answer a bit, also referencing Graeme. Really, it's not about Scarlet. It's about Bayer pattern sensors and the inherent method of luma and chroma sampling in relation to resolution and theoretical/practical limits.

IMHO, the X:X:X format doesn't really make sense to apply to RAW. Just enjoy the latitude afforded by the format and the sensor. In practice, I think many find it to be superior to be 4:2:0 standards.
Click to expand...

The closest approximation for Bayer would be 4:2:2, as there are two green pixels for each red and blue pixel. This is also by the way the approximate ratio of green to red and blue cones in the human eye, so a Bayer pattern sensor is perhaps the closest mechanical mimic of how the eye sees color.
 
Graeme posted a long response over in the AF100 thread at dvxuser on page 99. The long version of what a couple of folks already said. I like long answers.
 
I think everyone needs to come to terms with the fact that RED is just not going to telegraph it's plans and moves anymore like it has done all along. They could do that while everyone was in denial and while everyone laughed at RED. It worked in their favor as they could get real time reactions and feedback to ideas.

But "the other guys" are not laughing at RED anymore. They are trying to catch up. So ... take a deep breath.

You have to trust Jim and the team. They are aware of everything you are are aware of - changes in the marketplace, offerings from competitors, etc.

Things do change. RED can change directions faster than any of it's competitors.

What will they do with SCARLET ????

I don't have any idea. But I do know this:

Jim is not going to offer you something with less features and quality for MORE money than the competition. He's just a wee bit smarter than that if you look at his track record.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
RED can change directions faster than any of it's competitors.
Click to expand...

I have zero doubts about that.

The problem is, can they put their products out faster than the competition?

To me RED is getting everything 100% right, except for the fact that they have a custom of being more than a year behind original schedules.
 
Daniel Valle said:
To me RED is getting everything 100% right, except for the fact that they have a custom of being more than a year behind original schedules.
Click to expand...

RED "schedules" are just made up targets. Goals. Best guesses. They have tons of engineers trying to do something that hasn't been done before. It's not like you can actually "schedule" that. You can only allocate time, money and manpower - work relentlessly to manage the process - and choose to tell or not tell the public an estimated delivery date.

Does Apple post "original schedules" for their product launches? Are they late on that new 12-core MacPro?? When did they say they would ship that ....?
 
I'm sure it doesn't mean anything, but MovieMaker reported an August release for Scarlet. Of course their editorial lead times interfere with it.

In the meantime though, I've stumbled across an alternate system, available now, that lets me shoot 2/3" uncompressed in what is essentially raw mode, with variable frame rates and interchangeable lenses. The resolution is really up there too, at least 5K, and the dynamic range is awesome. Equipment prices are fairly low, even for top-of-the line stuff, it's readily available, and there's no wait to purchase.

Of course, there's a downside. Postproduction costs are a bit high, and there's no immediate feedback on image quality.







S16.jpg


:thumbsup:
​
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top