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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet Predictions Revisited

A lot has happened since NAB 2008, most importantly the "HDSLR revolution". The Scarlet still seems revolutionary.

The big companies are restricted by industry standards. Right now, 1080p and low-bitrate AVCCAM/other H.264 implementations seems to be the standard. The manufacturer will have to create their own codec and acquisition format.

Of course, there is no doubt someone will go out and do it at some time. The longer Scarlet is delayed, the closer the competitors get to catching up. Remember, they have known about this camera for more than 2 years now, and they realize this is just what the consumers want. The likes of Sony, Panasonic, Canon have massive resources, don't be surprised if they have a Scarlet competitor out. Of course, I don't expect any of them to be shooting 3K RAW any time soon, but who knows? Unlike RED, these guys keep quiet and come up with big announcements not far from release.
 
Jim Retar said:
Sorry to go off topic, but the proposed codec in the AF100 is strong and also has HD-SDI out (ie, RAW 4:4:4)

I like the looks of it to tide me over until Scarlet s35 is launched (as I can start building up a nice collection of PL lenses to work on both).
Click to expand...

Single link HDSDI SMPTE 292M is not raw, it is encoded broadcast digital video YUV 4:2:2 at up to 1080i 59.94 field rate.
3G-SDI SMPTE 424M with a faster bitrate supports up to 1080p 60, but is not being put in cameras yet, certainly not prosumer models.
Neither standard supports full 4:4:4 color sampling which is still encoded RGB not raw.
Not to say it isn't capable of excellent image quality, just look at any live HD sports broadcast. Beats the pants off of H.264 for sure.
 
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David Rasberry said:
Single link HDSDI SMPTE 292M is not raw, it is encoded broadcast digital video YUV 4:2:2 at up to 1080i 59.94 field rate.
3G-SDI SMPTE 424M with a faster bitrate supports up to 1080p 60, but is not being put in cameras yet, certainly not prosumer models.
Neither standard supports full 4:4:4 color sampling which is still encoded RGB not raw.
Not to say it isn't capable of excellent image quality, just look at any live HD sports broadcast. Beats the pants off of H.264 for sure.
Click to expand...
I think you are confused here David.
HDSDI is not compressed, only serialized hence the 1.65Gbps and 3Gbps data rates. 3Gbps is a 4:4:4 sampling hence requires double the data rate.
H264 is the compression standard for upcoming (maybe it's already there)broadcast. Currently it's mpeg 2 up to 19.2 Mbps (per channel), h264 will provide the same quality at about 10Mbps. That's all you ever see on TV. I'm not sure if they switched to h264(Nagra3 satellite anyone?) I've not been that current on broadcast standards lately:beer:
 
If you asked me if the Scarlet would be out this year a month ago, my answer would have been a resounding "HELL YES!".
However, with the advent of "the bug" and the hypothetical month-late footage my answer is a deafening "HELL NO!".

Don't get me wrong, I haven't lost faith in the program.
I might get a RED ONE instead of a few Scarlet's, but I still love the RED program and ideology.
 
Didn't say it was compressed. It is an encoded serial data stream with each pixel defined by two 20 bit words, one for luma Y and one for chroma C divided into two 10bit segments for Cb and Cr. Luma and chroma both contain defined values of R, G, and B in a sum and difference matrix that reduces transport bandwidth requirements much like NTSC did in the analog world.
In a Bayer pattern camera, the image would first be deBayered to define RGB values for each pixel and then encoded, hence not a raw signal path, even if uncompressed and the range of possible values for R and B are Each 50% of Y.
 
Yes, sorry.... I always get raw and uncompressed mixed up. But 4:4:4 is possible

I'd prefer RAW (more robust) but just thought I would point the SDI capablities out to the guy who thought the AF100 would be weak in that respect. Even the AVCCAM is alot better than people seem to think, very gradable and little compression.

Anyway, back to Scarlet talk before I get banned/thread closed.
 
HDSDI is by definition a 4:2:2 transport standard. Bandwidth for R and B are each half of Y signal component. Not to say you could not feed it a 4:4:4 file as a source to encode, but coming out of any camera it is 4:2:2 Y:Cb:Cr. That is the standard.
 
David Rasberry said:
HDSDI is by definition a 4:2:2 transport standard. Bandwidth for R and B are each half of Y signal component. Not to say you could not feed it a 4:4:4 file as a source to encode, but coming out of any camera it is 4:2:2 Y:Cb:Cr. That is the standard.
Click to expand...
I thought dual-link HD-SDI supported 4:4:4.
 
I predict a late Scarlet entry in the Fall (2/3" only) or by next NAB. Like with the RED One, random stuff just happened that caused delays. Now, those of you who know me know that I am and have been very critical and heavy handed when it comes to the Scarlet and Epic cameras but I do want to see them come out just as badly and as soon as everybody else wants them to. If we're not hard on RED then how will they know to keep pushing forward to make better products? Look, if I were doing a project right now I would weigh my options heavily. I would love to work with an MX RED One and see how that goes but if I'm not doing anything that involves special effects or greenscreen then I'd have to opt for a DSLR option at this point.

Now, having said that, I wouldn't buy anything right now (unless its a DSLR for stills which I'm looking at that 21 megapixel 5D Mark II pretty hard right now) because rental rates are so good at this point that you can use whatever you want for whatever budget. Obviously once the Scarlet does come out, people are going to be clamoring for their own, whether it's a standard package or a completely tricked out model. But until then it's best to save your pennies in my opinion.
 
"I wouldn't buy anything right now"

I am a prosumer and my plan is to wait until September. At that time, I'll evaluate DSLR/DSMC products to determine if I should invest in glass or a camera system.

The specs for the Scarlet FF35 are appealing. However, in 8 months, my expectations will have likely changed. I truly hope that Red makes an announcement sooner rather than later.
 
You guys are missing the biggest downside with the HD-SDI output of the AF-100. Even if it is uncompressed, the signal is most likely processed in camera. Processing means some raw sensor data is being thrown away before sending the signal out of the HD-SDI port. That's the biggest problem with HD cameras as far as I can see.

It's just not likely that we'll see any raw 4:4:4 uncompressed cameras at the AF100 price point any time soon. That is, until Scarlet arrives.
 
I predict more predictions.

I'll check back here in another six months and see where we're at. Have fun debating. I'm going to go climb kilimanjaro and canoe the Zambezi with my bolex. Does anyone have any tips for converting 16mm film to red code raw? ;-)
 
From Panasonic's update released this past Monday. Look for their "Preliminary" brochure with a Zeiss Arri mounted on the AF100.

"The AVCHD recording format used by the AG-AF100 includes a professional PH mode with maximum AVCHD bit rate for stunning image quality.
"The AG-AF100 records in 1080:59.94i/50i/29.97p/25p/23.98p or 720:29.94p/50p/29.97p/25p/23.98p with its multi HD format. When recording in 720p mode, you can render movie-like images with effects like slow and quick motion. The Dynamic Range Stretcher, Gamma Select and other image features have also been inherited from previous Panasonic professional camera recorders.
"The AG-AF100 features HD-SDI output, XLR audio 2 channel input, and other interfaces that are typically found on professional camera recorders.

So it looks to me like an HMC150 with a m4/3 sensor and mount, plus HD-SDI output. HD-SDI out should be 4:2:2, but is that simply a reprocessed 4:2:0 AVCHD PH signal? And if it was dual-link or 3G HD-SDI 4:4:4 it seems they would say something about it.

Hmmm. Less exciting than I had hoped.
 
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