Scarlet owners- Upgrade or trade-in? Epic-X or Scarlet-D? What say you and WHY?

[Marcos Montenegro]

It's a good time to be a RED Scarlet-X owner, for sure. I've been debating for a while what upgrade/trade-in path I should take; awaiting Dragon footage, weighing all the pros and cons of each, what I need vs what I want debate, etc. To be honest, if there was an upgrade path from Scarlet-Dragon to Epic-Dragon this will be a much easier choice, at least for me, even if the SD-to-ED was more expensive than $9.5K. But the fact remains that there is NO current or planned upgrade path from SD to ED and that makes me hesitant a bit to jump on Scarlet-Dragon. By the way, other financial commitments prevent me from going straight to Epic-Dragon, so that won't even be considered here.. So, I know most of you have different needs/wants than me, but I wanted to share the pros and cons that I've been wrestling with to hopefully get a debate going. I need to make a choice pretty soon (like 2 weeks max).

Scarlet-X to Epic-X trade-in

PROS

• 120fps at 5k....nothing like high fps footage, nothing, plug-ins can't touch it.
• One gets a completely NEW camera with a 1 year warranty.
• 5K acquisition brings a wider FOV from all your lenses.
• R3D 5K RAW third party support and workflow will not change dramatically from the current 4K Scarlet workflow.
• Keeps the upgrade path to 6K Epic-Dragon open for a future upgrade.
• I feel like an Epic is still a beast of a camera, and will open new opportunities to shoot certain ways/things that I didn't/couldn't have with my Scarlet. I've worked with a few Epic rentals before and they were a lot of fun to shoot with.
• Easier to rent than Scarlet, if that was your thing.
• Badass BLACK body.

CONS

• Same MX sensor as the Scarlet, which doesn't particularly shine in low-light situations, although it excels at pretty much everything else.
• 14 MPs is not enough to replace my DSLR for certain applications. (and STILL NO REAL TIMELAPSE FEATURES, like exposures of more than 1 second)
• Will miss out on most of the awesomeness of the Dragon release mania and footage, but again, since upgrade path is still open, this won't bother me as much.
• Unable to buy RED ARMOR warranty (someone please explain this to me).

Scarlet-X to Scarlet-D upgrade


PROS

• Brand spanking new Dragon sensor and all goodies than come with it (low light, "more", etc)
• 5k at 60fps will pretty much cover 75% of all shots out there (at least the current work/gigs I get with Scarlet).
• Will finally be able to emphasize the S in DSMC with the 19 MP sensor in photography situations (although no 6K!).
• Cash in on the Dragon fever, maybe get some gigs/rentals on that alone.

CONS

• End of the road in terms of upgrade/trade-in path. No Epic-Dragon possible.
• Only a 90-day warranty.
• Unable to buy RED ARMOR warranty (someone please explain this to me).
• No 6K, even at 12fps like 5K in Scarlet-X. This would have been ideal for my still photography clientele (is the 19MP sensor not really 19MP at 5K?)
• Third party support and workflow will take some time to catch up to Dragon. Is it better to wait out most bugs and tweaks or to jump and be in the cutting edge? Hopefully the upgrade path will still be available in a year or two.
• Same grey body.
• Will always look at 6K Epic-Dragon footage at 100fps and think "should I have taken the BLUE pill instead?"...

Anyway, as of now, I'm leaning on an Epic-X trade-in. Of course, this can change quickly, but I think I'll go this route and plan on making 10K with the new Epic to pay for the Dragon upgrade down the road. But we'll see what I end up doing. I would love to hear from fellow Scarlet owners and what they plan on doing. What say you? Thanks!

 

[Eric Santiago]

If its good enough for The Hobbit and the rest of the RED films of late then the EPIC upgrade will do.

Its not like the Scarlet is broken.

 

[Luca Orlandi]

:ihih:

If its good enough for The Hobbit and the rest of the RED films of late then the EPIC upgrade will do.

Yes, Dragon is a luxury.
I will upgrade to dragon for sure in the next year.
But NOW, the EPIC-X is enough (for the rest of us).

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Eric and Luca:

Yeah, that's the path I'm leaning on. However, I know of a lot of folks that want the Dragon low-light capability. Some don't consider low-light a "luxury" per say, but I know Epic will be a game changer for current Scarlet owners.

 

[Eric Santiago]

im not sure about the low light situation wouldnt you just light your scene properly?

or you plan on shooting in the dark all the time?

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

im not sure about the low light situation wouldnt you just light your scene properly?

or you plan on shooting in the dark all the time?

With Scarlet, and I imagine with Epic as well since they have the same sensor, you had no choice but to light your scene properly. All I said before was that for some people, a sensor that performs well in low-light situations will give you the option to not light your scene at all and still get the shot you want, quicker, easier, etc. So for some, low-light capabilities may not be a "luxury" like Luca stated, it might be a necessity.

 

[Eric Santiago]

I love the fact that we get to light a scene the way we want.

Im just happy that my Scarlet can capture that moment.

The bonus (personal) for EPIC is the 120fps at a higher res.

I think its a bargain from my pov (BT Scarlet to EPIC-X).

I guess if when i start shooting heavy in different situations lighting can be an issue.

IMHO, the Scarlet does a great job at what I need it to do, and upgrading to the EPIC is just icing

 

[Nick Fury]

Hi Marcos,

I have also been weighing the warranty issues, for some time. I have not looked at the Scarlet to EpicX program, though, including Red Armour. That would be of some use to document, particularly, if your intention is to hire out the camera. My recollection is that Red has not allowed upgrades to restart the non-upgraded portion of the camera's warranty, but this is not precisely the same (although many components are, of course, new replacements).

Thank you very much

Fury

 

[Joe Minuni]

im not sure about the low light situation wouldnt you just light your scene properly?

or you plan on shooting in the dark all the time?

It's not about absence of lighting for the low light capabilities, but the fact you can use less powerful, cooler, smaller lights. Helps you move faster with a smaller crew

I plan on getting the dragon upgrade for my scarlet, but still waiting to see more about the official specs and more footage, etc etc

 

[Luca Orlandi]

Yes, better low light performance and D.R. this is what we want... But i still love the MX sensor.
And for the luxury ... I'm Italian, I love the luxury and superfluous things. :biggrinjester:

Eric and Luca:

Yeah, that's the path I'm leaning on. However, I know of a lot of folks that want the Dragon low-light capability. Some don't consider low-light a "luxury" per say, but I know Epic will be a game changer for current Scarlet owners.

 

[Lliam Worthington]

I guess it's where you place your value. Scarlet is already great. Both upgrades are great. But if I can only spend 9.5K on an upgrade, for "me" the Scarlet Dragon represents the much better value. If I had a spare 19K it would be a different story.

The Dragon sensor looks amazing. Better DR, better low light (which is a great boon despite a few posts on here I think) cleaner... and as you stated Marcos, the higher frame rates are adequate for most applications, will deliver true 4k now, we get new Dragon colour science, and a better stills camera. (I think lens coverage is another useful pro too Marcos).

I would take Epic MX over SD if A) I knew I would need/want to upgrade to full Dragon Epic one day or B) higher frame rates were the most important thing for the majority of my work. Otherwise, I think form what we have seen, Dragon, in any form, will be more versatile and capable of delivering better images.

On low light, I could have made great use of the extra sensitivity a number of times this year. Hard to light a cityscape at dusk Eric or get a grip truck to a Nepalese farmers house in the mountains. Nor does lighting with less have to equal lesser lighting. And if you ONLY have less, what a great asset.

Bottom line, a Scarlet Dragon is a camera I can see myself very happily shooting with for many years to come.

All that said, I think you left off the biggest cons of the SDragon upgrade path Marcos, and that is that it's at the back of the queue with an unknown delivery date. Timing wise personally I'm ok with that. But I can see that for others upgrading to Epic NOW would make a lot more sense.

Best
Lliam

 

[Jett He]

As tempting as the Dragon Sensor is, I feel the $9500 is more valued at an Epic. BUT damn, i really like shooting in low light situations and the dynamic range is a bonus. Also dragon is cleaner at 2000iso than mx at 800. Well I guess i'm still back at deciding until I make an impulse move, which I will have no regret of.

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Jett-

Geez, thanks for clarifying. You sound as indecisive as me. LOL.

As tempting as the Dragon Sensor is, I feel the $9500 is more valued at an Epic. BUT damn, i really like shooting in low light situations and the dynamic range is a bonus. Also dragon is cleaner at 2000iso than mx at 800. Well I guess i'm still back at deciding until I make an impulse move, which I will have no regret of.

 

[Lliam Worthington]

It's not about absence of lighting for the low light capabilities, but the fact you can use less powerful, cooler, smaller lights. Helps you move faster with a smaller crew

I plan on getting the dragon upgrade for my scarlet, but still waiting to see more about the official specs and more footage, etc etc

Yeah exactly. Posted while I was typing.

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Lliam:

I agree with almost everything you state. Dragon delivery date isn't really a concern for me, though, as when it comes out it comes out, you know?

Again, I thought Scarlet-Dragon would be my path, but there is something about watching 90fps footage at 5k that skips a heartbeat. All great points though!

 

[Tom Greenberg]

I am a fairly recent Scarlet owner, and have spent a ton of $$$ properly outfitting my kit this year (you guys know what I mean). Since I now teach fulltime, my Scarlet doesn't generate revenue nearly as quickly as someone who shoots for a living every day. I do a gig here and there, and an occasional rental, along with my own (non-funded) projects. But basically, all the upgrades and add-ons will come out of pocket.

When the upgrades were first announced, I was positive that I would initially (but very eventually) upgrade to Epic-X and then ultimately (much, much later) to Epic-Dragon. I also don't have the budget to consider "going all the way" in one step, so I have to think about it as a two step process.

However, seeing the Dragon images get released, and reading all the discussion, has certainly got me lusting after the capabilities of Dragon. So now I am really wondering whether Scarlet-Dragon is the better path...especially because I know I will be forced to work with $9500 at a time.

My biggest fear in all of this is that RED will decide to cut off upgrades from Scarlet-X to Epic-X at some point, and that I won't have my funds together in time. I feel like the upgrade path from Epic-X to Epic-Dragon has been pretty well defined, and sounds (at least for now) like it will be pretty open-ended. Of course, that may not be true in the long run (everything is subject to change). So I feel like if I can get to Epic-X, then I can have some breathing room to pull the rest of the funds together.

And I keep going back and forth...high frame rates vs. low noise/low light...high frame rates vs. low noise/low light, etc., etc., etc....

 

[Maik Müller]

Tom i know the feeling, have nearly the same thoughts.

I'm mostly trying to find my way between Scarlet Dragon and EPIC Dragon, because it is clear to me, that the big part of what i shoot will be in standard framerates, and for that a Scarlet-D will be the better camera compared to a EPIC with MX-sensor. And well, Scarlet-D can already do some highspeed-stuff too.

And then there is the EPIC-D, 6k and even more fps in high resolution, tempting, because there are possibilities to explore. But do i really need that? Hehe.

I don't know if this has been mentioned here before, but i also see the motion mount as a factor to think about, this thing is something that will have big influence to nearly everything you shoot and how you shoot. Could it be more important than 6k and/or higher fps?

So, i think about Scarlet-D with MM vs EPIC-D without MM too.

Decisions, decisions...

 

[Jett He]

The main problem that all scarlet owners are having is deciding between Epic or S-Dragon. BUT I just realized that either camera will be great. There will be no regrets in any of your decisions. So if I could get the upgrade I wouldn't mind flipping a coin and leaving it to chance. Either way, I'll be happy. NOW the main concern we should we focusing on, or at least mine, is coming up with the FUNDS :mellow:

 

[Clint Lealos]

My plan is this... Upgrade to Epic X. Get as much work/rentals as I can, and then use that money to upgrade to Epic Dragon. It should take about a year for me. Then I shoot the crap out of that Dragon and see what the future brings.

 

[Troy Bakewell]

IMO Dragon is going to be so awesome that the only reason you would go with the Epic is the fact that it is the only way to eventually get to Dragon Epic. (As far as we know anyway)

If I were forced to pick one knowing that I would never be able to upgrade again, I would for 100% sure pick Dragon. However, for me I plan to go Epic (in about a month) with the idea that once the Dragon path is even available to me I will be able to afford the second $9500.

Dragon is the furure and I have a feeling that MX will be looking pretty long in the tooth a year from now.

Just my $0.02