Scarlet Dragon or Epic MX

[Timur Civan]

Scarlett Dragon. Don't look back.

 

[Domenic Barbero]

Here is my thought. After playing with epic dragon, Its really really nice, but damn it all if you can find a cine lens that doesnt vignette hard on it. Thank goodness I have my Contax Zeiss set. I think the Scarlet dragon is really the better choice if just getting one camera. If you want to upgrade to epic dragon down the line, sell your scarlet and add some cash. But I'll bet you the Scarlet Dragon will be just fine for almost everything you do. I think its now a legit A cam for any production.

 

[Guy Staley]

Here is my thought. After playing with epic dragon, Its really really nice, but damn it all if you can find a cine lens that doesnt vignette hard on it. Thank goodness I have my Contax Zeiss set. I think the Scarlet dragon is really the better choice if just getting one camera. If you want to upgrade to epic dragon down the line, sell your scarlet and add some cash. But I'll bet you the Scarlet Dragon will be just fine for almost everything you do. I think its now a legit A cam for any production.

Thanks Dom, that's exactly what I wanted to hear! I salivate over the thought of uber-high frame rates, but in the end, it's such a niche. I am super stoked for Scarlet Dragon! And 60fps@5k will fit 95% of my needs!

 

[Domenic Barbero]

Thanks Dom, that's exactly what I wanted to hear! I salivate over the thought of uber-high frame rates, but in the end, it's such a niche. I am super stoked for Scarlet Dragon! And 60fps@5k will fit 95% of my needs!

No prob Guy.

 

[Richard Coburn]

Here is my thought. After playing with epic dragon, Its really really nice, but damn it all if you can find a cine lens that doesnt vignette hard on it. Thank goodness I have my Contax Zeiss set. I think the Scarlet dragon is really the better choice if just getting one camera. If you want to upgrade to epic dragon down the line, sell your scarlet and add some cash. But I'll bet you the Scarlet Dragon will be just fine for almost everything you do. I think its now a legit A cam for any production.

Cheers Domenic. It's that kind of experienced and thoughtful response that makes Reduser so cool. Thanks to everyone who chipped in, this is such a timely post for me.

Great post Chistoffer

 

[Domenic Barbero]

Cheers Domenic. It's that kind of experienced and thoughtful response that makes Reduser so cool. Thanks to everyone who chipped in, this is such a timely post for me.

Great post Chistoffer

No problem Richard. Hope it helps with your decision.

 

[Richard Coburn]

Makes it totally harder (I was convinced to go the Epic route) but in a good way.

 

[Neil Dearman]

Yeah But I hear people having issues with the noise with the Dragon Sensors? How is it working in post?

 

[Domenic Barbero]

Should be a firmware fix out REALLY soon to make that better

 

[Adam Carboni]

Thanks for the insight, Dom!

Most of my commercial and narrative work is 16X9.
In your experience with the Scarlet-Dragon, are you finding that it's more advantageous to shoot 60fps at 5K 2.39:1, then crop in post to achieve a 16X9 ratio, or do you prefer shooting 4K 60fps 16X9?

It's always an issue to be considered when trying to SQUEEZE as many fps out of a Scarlet, and I'm just curious how the footage is holding up in this regard.

Thanks!

-Adam

 

[Samir Patel]

For me Id take the Scarlet dragon over the epic mx any day of the week. Id much rather have color science, Cleaner blacks, No ISO penalty, No IR contamination, Better latitude on tap all the time than high frame rates. And truth be told, unless you only do high framerate stuff outside, you have to factor in having a shit ton of lights to light 300. 60fps at 5k on Scarlet with option of 120 at 2k is more than enough for almost 90% of projects.

Ive got an epic dragon and a scarlet dragon, and Im really glad I went with scarlet. The MX is great but the Scarlet dragon beats it in almost every way in my opinion

Hey Domenic, how clean is that 120fps@2K?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

For me Id take the Scarlet dragon over the epic mx any day of the week. Id much rather have color science, Cleaner blacks, No ISO penalty, No IR contamination, Better latitude on tap all the time than high frame rates. And truth be told, unless you only do high framerate stuff outside, you have to factor in having a shit ton of lights to light 300. 60fps at 5k on Scarlet with option of 120 at 2k is more than enough for almost 90% of projects.

Ive got an epic dragon and a scarlet dragon, and Im really glad I went with scarlet. The MX is great but the Scarlet dragon beats it in almost every way in my opinion

I've still not decided which road is the best. I understand all these points, but the concerns is that I want to be able to do UHD productions and doing 120 fps at 2K will render a very bad bayered image when uprezed. Also the compression for doing 48 fps at 5K is around 16:1 which is quite high and 10:1 for 25fps 5K. What I mean is that Epic MX is still a very very good camera and I'm wondering if it's more "future proof" than a Scarlet Dragon?

Also, if I'm going to rent out my camera during times when my own productions are on hold (or in screenwriting mode), then the Scarlet Dragon might be less attractive than an Epic-MX. Most rentals go out to music videos or commercials and people who really need the high frame rates.

I'm really looking for the best choice to get most use out of the camera. My dream scenario would be a used Epic that I would later upgrade to a Epic Dragon, but that's not the easiest thing to get a hold of.

 

[Matthew Scott]

The difference between the MX and Dragon sensor is certainly not game changing, drastic, vastly different, light years apart, or like comparing apples and oranges...not from what I've seen. They're hard to tell apart. That might sound disrespectful to RED and their efforts, but when it comes to $10,000 or more, it's certainly hard to justify. Wait out the next generation sensor, that's what I'm going to do.

 

[Richard Coburn]

Hey Christoffer

From reading your posts I have come to the conclusion that we are in a similar position. I have a number of roles but I'm a director with a strong focus on post production (I'm a senior editor/vfx artist and motion designer at the post house where I work.) I'm after a Red because I want to set a standard of quality in my own work and possibly start to speculate on cool projects. I have access to high end post but camera is always a hire cost so this would open up lots of possibilities for me. I must admit that it's been a really hard choice and many people have made a convincing case for both but I reckon it comes down to my exact needs. I'm pretty sure I'm going with the Epic MX and here's why.

It's obviously a pretty good camera that has a track record of delivering to the highest level of production. As someone with a post and vfx focus, the frame rates are a real draw card as well as the multitude of options for resolutions that a scarlet doesn't have. I have heard people talk about the difference in compression between MX and Dragon but, looking at the specs, there are a range of possibilities that Epic Dragon has that Scarlet Dragon doesn't. I still find it hard to work out what's the best compression I can get 5K at 50fps on the Scarlet Dragon.

For my money, having a camera that has shot many a Hollywood feature now, with the option down the track to upgrade to an amazing new sensor in the top of the line model is better than a limited version of that new sensor. There's more pressure on me to make the camera work enough to reach that goal but I believe that to be possible otherwise I wouldn't be making the purchase in the first place.

I have a bit of camera experience myself but I know mine will be regularly used by very the experienced guys I usually use, many of whom I consulted about the purchase. While Scarlet level might be more of a fit with my camera experience, Epic level is where my post experience lies and I want to play in that field. I am also mindful of the rates I can charge an Epic out, even if I will only use it on my jobs, I can still charge that rate and hopefully put it towards the upgrade.

As for the really high frame rates, I do have access to a whole bunch of lights if I need it and the vfx and motion design possibilities are mouth watering. For that much money (for me anyway) the Epic feels like a more complete camera. Sorry, but if I still need to hire something after spending this much out of my own pocket, my wife will kick me (or use sarcasm.)

There also seems to be heaps of discussion about the Dragon sensor so I'm also weighing up the tried and tested versus the new and ongoing updates. Very cheeky, I know, but maybe when people have stopped complaining about noise and the new olpf I'll be able to afford my upgrade (this is said tounge-in-cheek...sort of.)

I must admit, the thing that was swaying me more to the Scarlet was the fact that I could purchase more DSMC bits but I think I have a handle on the best options for an Epic now.

This all works for me, much of it may not for you. At the end of the day I reckon, no matter what I chose, I'm going to have a ball playing with it and I'll be driven to make heaps of cool stuff. And lets not forget, I'll be saving already for my eventual upgrade to the top of the line model. That's the main thing I'd say to you, as far as choices go, either way you'll have a pretty powerful tool in your hands.

Cheers
Rich

 

[TD Wood]

I'm actually still facing that dilema, even though I purchased the Scarlet Dragon upgrade more than a year ago and paid in advance. The delays and uncertainty of when the upgrade will begin are really making me wonder if this upgrade is worth $9500 anymore. Scarlet Dragon is right now one of the best cameras out there (no doubt), but I wonder if I should save those $9500 and wait for what next year might bring in terms of new cameras. Things are moving fast and while Scarlet Dragon for $9500 was a reasonable price to pay 2 years ago, now I am not so sure.

Epic MX is certainly a great alternative and I regret not having gone the epic mx route back on september. Like Matt states, lately I am really finding it hard to see the Dragon upgrade as a great jump forward from the MX worth the $9500.
I have actually been reading this thread and other similar ones hoping that I could find that post which would convince me either way, but that's not going to happen.
I am renting a Scarlet Dragon in the next few weeks to test it side by side with my Scarlet MX, and see if these tests help with the decision. But I will do that once new firmware is released (which supposedly fixes the red noise issue in the Dragon Sensor with new olpf).

There's always going to be good reasons for both options. At least, that has been my agonizing experience for the past 2 years. Shiiiit.

cheers

 

[M.D. Biemann]

I jumped to a Scarlet Dragon as new A-camera and am blown away... My Scarlet MX could still be upgraded to Epic-MX, but I doubt, that I will be that impressed after the 5k 8:1 Dragon pictures this little beauty is producing. My wife still wants me to call her "Toothless" but I still thing a camera that produces such stunning shots needs a name with some bite to it... EDIT: "Night Fury" it is
But it looks like we will have to tame that Dragon rather than train it

A litte surprise btw... Scarlet with Side-SSD and mount (Nikon) shipped in that NICE METAL SCARLET-X box... and a little RED sticker as well

 

[Vladimir Druts]

The difference between the MX and Dragon sensor is certainly not game changing, drastic, vastly different, light years apart, or like comparing apples and oranges...not from what I've seen. They're hard to tell apart. That might sound disrespectful to RED and their efforts, but when it comes to $10,000 or more, it's certainly hard to justify. Wait out the next generation sensor, that's what I'm going to do.

Really Matt? I see an massive difference personally; the amount of dynamic range the new sensor picks up is like night and day. Definitely more like the Alexa.

 

[Matthew Scott]

This is what confuses me..."massive difference", "night and day", if I could see that, I'd drop $10k in a heartbeat. It's a stop and a half, at best, with more noise in the shadows, and it's something I have to push in and squint at to see as I study the side by sides. Don't get me wrong, the dragon seems like a nicer sensor, and I welcome it's improvements, but when I'm comparing it to Epic, I don't see $10K and I don't see massive differences.

 

[Brian Boyer]

This is what confuses me..."massive difference", "night and day", if I could see that, I'd drop $10k in a heartbeat. It's a stop and a half, at best, with more noise in the shadows, and it's something I have to push in and squint at to see as I study the side by sides. Don't get me wrong, the dragon seems like a nicer sensor, and I welcome it's improvements, but when I'm comparing it to Epic, I don't see $10K and I don't see massive differences.

Matthew, if you haven't already, you should take a look at this test by Ryan E. Walters: http://indiecinemaacademy.com/red-epic-dragon-vs-red-epic-mx-hype-real-part-01-video

There's something a little wonky going on in the shadows in this test that I've never seen in any other new OLPF Dragon R3D, even in the other ones complaining of noise. At any rate, I'm primarily pointing out the highlight latitude.

Even when a face is just shy of (or barely) clipping on MX, it often seems like it's struggling to me. It looks like the sensor doesn't have anything else to give. It's hard to explain. Dragon alleviates that look.

It has 7 stops of DR above middle gray. It can handle 4 2/3 stops of overexposure in this caucasian face without any clipping. It's clipping at 5 stops over but only a little bit and it's still quite useable. MX, on the other hand, has already given up the ghost at the 4 2/3 mark. It's that refinement in the image that I find a most welcome improvement.

Also, pay attention to how much more the chart colors are saturated in the Dragon overexposures versus the same MX overexposures. On top of that, Dragon tends to do a whole lot better in mixed lighting (see the video below).

IMO, from an image standpoint, Epic MX loses gigs to Alexa most often based on color and overexposure latitude. Now, Dragon competes favorably on both fronts. That goes for the Scarlet Dragon.

If 7 stops of overexposure latitude were easy to do, everybody would be offering it. Most other manufacturers can't even offer it at 2K, let alone 6K.

The next cheapest camera with those highlight specs is the Amira at $40K, and it's limited to 2K resolution and ProRes recording. $9,500 isn't looking like a lot compared to the next closest competitor in the areas of image quality that seem to carry the most weight.

Like I've said before, if lowlight performance were what most productions were concerned with, Canons and Sonys would be outpacing Alexas, but they're not.

Also, take a look at this thread - http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?118889-Shot-on-Dragon - from Michael Kromschroeder.

There's only one shot in this whole video I would say "needs" NR. The rest is quite beautifully organic looking to me.

https://vimeo.com/99054688

 

[Matthew Scott]

Yeah man,I've seen those too. I see the differences, honestly I do. But they are difficult to see, unless you dig. There's some headroom in the highlights, awesome, but I've never had an issue with highlights before. There's slightly better colour out of the box, but it's slightly better. It seems to handle mixed lighting better... Cool! But to me, it's not Alex that's a competition, it's the epic, which is pretty much, the same camera. That's my point. Scarlet dragon or EPIC? It's more like, do you want a camera with a cooler name, or one that is rock solid that shoots HFR? I'm not saying the dragon sensor isn't amazing, I'm just saying that it's not much more amazing than the already amazing, MX.