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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet Dragon or Epic MX

Christoffer Glans

Christoffer Glans

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I'm trying to figure out what's really the best way to go if planning to buy one system.
The Epic MX is "only" 3000 USD more than the Scarlet Dragon. It has lower compression and higher frame rates, while the Scarlet Dragon has a better sensor with a few more stops and better color science, but lack in high frame rates and has higher compression.

What's the real good deal here? Can't get my head around it.
 
Remember - there's a lot of talk about Dragon compression being vastly different than MX. I remember reading comparisons that made it sound as if Scarlet Dragon compression (despite having higher numbers) is more comparable to some of the low compression seen in Epic MX.

With both being 5K cameras, one has better color / tonality / dynamic range / ISO independence without hitting a DR floor - the other has high speed. I'm also under the assumption that when the MX cameras are moved out of the market, the Scarlet Dragon may become Epic upgradeable as it is now.
 
Hey Christoffer

I have a similar dilemma. As someone who works in vfx and post, the higher frame rates are a big draw card of the Epic. I also thought that Epic MX to Dragon is replacing parts within your brain whereas Scarlet to Epic is a completely new brain so how would that work with a Scarlet Dragon upgrade? Will we see grey bodied Dragons in the future? I'm interested to know why it's no question for you Alex if you don't mind elaborating?

I must admit I'm becoming convinced that Epic now, with the promise of a future Epic Dragon, is the way to go for my needs.
 
I'm kinda in the same boat, Scarlet dragon or new epic? I'm leaning towards the epic mx myself, however if there was an upgrade path from the scarlet dragon to the epic Dragon I would most likely go that route.
 
I'd go for the Epic. Image quality is still very good compared to Dragon.
You can always upgrade Epic to Dragon. Scarlet Dragon > Epic Dragon isn't possible AFAIK.
 
I have a SCARLET DRAGON. Next to EPIC it seems a bit like a one-trick pony. I *love* the DRAGON sensor, and I am absolutely amazed at the quality of image one can get right from the camera. If all you ever do is shoot s35-sized 5K @ 24fps and REDCODE 8:1 the SCARLET is the obvious winner. One of my key lenses only covers s35, so I'm forced to crop to 5K whenever I use that lens anyway.

I haven't used EPIC M-X, but I do have an EPIC DRAGON, and if we just ignore the sensor for a moment and consider what the EPIC brain can do...it can shoot 5.5K or 6K for lenses that have more than s35 coverage. So wides are wider. It can shoot 5.5K or 6K *resolution*, so noise is smaller when finishing at 4K. It can shoot 5.5K or 6K for more look-around when you are shooting. So you can give yourself more room for error.

It has crazy high frame rates compared to SCARLET, which means that when you want slo-mo *somewhere* in your project, you don't need to scramble for another camera. EPIC can support anamorphic squeeze and de-squeeze in the camera, which SCARLET had initially, but is likely going to lose (because testing has revealed that it doesn't *quite* have the necessary performance). And of course, for all of the above reasons, if you are ever thinking about renting out your camera, SCARLET DRAGON will only ever rent to those who are well aware of, and insensitive to, its limitations.

To me, the EPIC feels like more than twice the camera that the SCARLET is. At less than twice the price. So for a first camera, I'd recommend EPIC. When it comes to buying a second camera, the SCARLET is a nice option. If I do buy a third camera, it will probably be an EPIC, because more than twice the camera at less than twice the price is a good deal. But the SCARLET will still have a job, because I really don't need all those bells and whistles for a 3rd camera...especially given my brilliant but handicapped lens.
 
Epic. No question. (Sorry, Alex. - LOL)

Truth be told, I think it is a very hard decision. In a sense, mine is even harder because the trade-in / upgrade dichotomy is equal in price. I am still planning a move to Epic first.
 
The Scarlet Dragon... because its a DRAGON!
If you want/need speed go for the Epic MX (under the upgrade path, thats basically a even choice)

I opted for the Scarlet Dragon, because I do not need the high speed... and if I need something faster and better that the Scarlet-MX... there is the Dragon now.

Bet that did not help you very much... but then again.. its a tough choice that only you yourself can answer for your needs/wants/superwants ,-)
 
If you love shooting 24fps, go with scarlet....the price is not really comparable btw....because going with epic now just means another 10k down the road...because you will want the dragon sensor at one point....
 
Kyle Gentz said:
I made the Jump to Epic. Because I didn't want to be stuck. I figure Ill go dragon next year.
Click to expand...

Unless RED gives us all notice in the fall time saying that they've completed their Epic-X-MX to Epic-Dragon upgrades and you have only a few months left to send it in for final upgrade calls!
 
How often do you guys shoot at greater than 30 fps? It seems like you're trading one special feature that you might use occasionally for having substantially lower quality footage overall. Sure HFR will happen eventually, but I highly doubt it will happen before Red comes out with a new camera.
 
Alex Kiritz said:
How often do you guys shoot at greater than 30 fps? It seems like you're trading one special feature that you might use occasionally for having substantially lower quality footage overall. Sure HFR will happen eventually, but I highly doubt it will happen before Red comes out with a new camera.
Click to expand...

Good points. I have no problem with the Scarlet, in fact I'm convinced the image out of a scarlet dragon will beat an epic x. Dont get me wrong, like the origional R1 the epics image will endure the test of time, I'm certain of that but unfortunately I've been getting quite a few calls for the Epic as well as the F3. It's like all of a sudden producers have become very specific, I don't have an F3 but I told them I have an f55 (it's my buddy's who was staying with me on a stop over) but they wanted the F3 instead. A major cable show! I was hurt. Lol. I own an fs700 but don't get many calls for it, even with the odyssey. It's a great camera, beats the F3 with the recorder but it can't really hold it's own in the business world. At least for the type of stuff I'm looking to shoot. At the time It was fine for what I needed it for, no doubt it's the Swiss army knive of cameras but I'm looking to step up my offerings. My buddy told me I may have a problem getting the work im after with the Scarlet. He said everyone wants the epic. I read that a few times here as well. I love the Scarlet, but in times where requests are becoming more and more specific I think for the moment I can't go wrong with an epic. if next year I'm as blessed with work I'll turn the epic into a dragon. Coming off an fs700 I have to admit its hard giving up those HFRs. That's where I'm at right now. It's a tough call, but I'm not complaining. :) Thanks
 
Epic, better faster frame rates and Dragon Sensor is still needs to fix all its issues
 
I know that there's a bit of an overuse of slo mo and possibly a backlash against it in some quarters, but if clients are constantly asking for it then I'd like to be prepared for it. Pretty much every DSLR job that comes through the facility where I work has some 50fps stuff to contend with. Yes, I am aware of the twisted logic that's making me want the Epic for hi res slo mo when clients seem happy to use 720p H264s to get what they need. My whole reason for looking into the Epic is a bit of a personal response to the "race to the bottom" in terms of budgets that seems to affect most things today. Sorry, I'm digressing, I've just had to grade one too many 5D and Blackmagic jobs lately for clients who want the same results of the Alexa, Red, F65 et al.

For the money, it feels like a bit more of a complete package. I must admit, my view is the opinion of someone with specific needs (alot of vfx and high end postproduction work) who hasn't tested an Epic X with a Scarlet Dragon. I just keep thinking of all the cool vfx work I could do shooting hi speed stuff and don't get me started on music video work.

Although, don't get me wrong, the reason it's such a dilemma is that I think we all want Dragon too. If only there was a way we could...oh right. Just going to have to try and raise those funds for an upgrade down the track.
 
For me Id take the Scarlet dragon over the epic mx any day of the week. Id much rather have color science, Cleaner blacks, No ISO penalty, No IR contamination, Better latitude on tap all the time than high frame rates. And truth be told, unless you only do high framerate stuff outside, you have to factor in having a shit ton of lights to light 300. 60fps at 5k on Scarlet with option of 120 at 2k is more than enough for almost 90% of projects.

Ive got an epic dragon and a scarlet dragon, and Im really glad I went with scarlet. The MX is great but the Scarlet dragon beats it in almost every way in my opinion
 
Appreciate you guys chiming in. It really makes sense for all the Scarlet does. I have no problem renting for HFRs if needed, The dragon is just so tempting, I can't wait. Either way I know I'll be satisfied. You guys are all wonderful, can't wait to be apart of the Red ecosystem. Thanks
 
Damn it Domenic, just when I think I have a handle on it, somone's well informed and reasoned point of view makes me doubt myself. Can I ask you, would you have a different response if you could only have one? Would you start with epic X and hope that you will be able to convert it later if the work/money comes in or would you go Scarlet Dragon. For a smaller operator, it seems to be making a choice between an eventual Epic Dragon or ending at Scarlet Dragon, if I understand the upgrade pathways. I agree with Anthony though, I suspect that either way I'll be pretty happy, and it's great to hear people's thoughts on this.
 
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