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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet and Dragon...

Red said something to the effect of "Of course we won't offer an upgrade if it costs more than simply buying a new brain."

Which is turns out it does, and so there won't be an upgrade. Instead they will offer what I am sure will be a very generous trade-up program. And people will STILL bitch about it!
 
AndrewThomas said:
Red said something to the effect of "Of course we won't offer an upgrade if it costs more than simply buying a new brain."

Which is turns out it does, and so there won't be an upgrade. Instead they will offer what I am sure will be a very generous trade-up program. And people will STILL bitch about it!
Click to expand...
Agreed, I feel like Jarred has been completely open about the upgrade/rebuild dilemma. The whole point here is that it would be unreasonable to expect RED to design the Dragon sensor to be any less than the best they can build, and the Scarlet hardware canʻt handle it. Hereʻs a few key quotes for those that missed them.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?86571-What-a-great-time&p=1073614&viewfull=1#post1073614
Jarred Land said:
We actually had to re-redesign our camera ASIC yet again to handle how good the sensor turned out in terms of latitude and noise floor.. so when it's upgrade time you guys will all be getting new ones of those as well dropped into your cameras.

That is also the reason we havn't committed to a Dragon-upgraded Scarlet yet.. we gotta wait to see how the new ASIC handles things.


There is some bad news in all this though.... Even though the sensor will be done by the end of the year as expected, and we will have some Dragon-Epic prototypes floating around we will share as best we can..... realistically you guys will need to wait a couple more more months until the new new ASICs come out of the oven to start the whole customer upgrade process.
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Gavin Greenwalt said:
To be clear you haven't committed yet to the Dragon-Upgraded Scarlet's *specs/price* yet ... right? I heard a pretty strong commitment to Dragon Upgrades last year when I bought my Scarlet. Or are we back to the old policy of "upgrade means selling and buying a new brain" (which honestly still seems like the cheaper route...).
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http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?86571-What-a-great-time&p=1074003&viewfull=1#post1074003
Jarred Land said:
We definitely are committed... that hasn't changed.. but we wont know till we know..
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http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?86571-What-a-great-time&p=1074636&viewfull=1#post1074636
Jarred Land said:
You will know by the end of the year for sure. We will make sure Scarlet owners have some way to get to Dragon.. We just don't know what that looks like yet, or how much it will cost, and just how much of the Dragon's fire we can squeeze into the Scarlet infrastructure.. There is a point with Scarlet where you replace so many internal bits that a brain upgrade becomes a more economical ( for you ) path. But we don't know that yet...

Dragon is no joke.. it turned out to be one hell of a fire breathing menace that eats up every bit of pixel data you can throw at it, from the deep deep bottoms to the highest of the highs.

We have never seen anything like it before. Graeme and Rob definitely have their work cut out for them :)
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To be honest, what excites me moving forward is that RED is more efficient at making cameras than ever before. Unless they build a specific camera for Scarlets category, it doesn't appear to be an easy fit in the production line. Maybe one camera to rule them all approach again. Who knows. RED has come so far in so little time and have changed the tides to take 4K seriously. I think they may need to re-invent themselves as competition heats up. I have no doubt they have more that a couple of tricks up their sleeves. At this level it's not just about building better cameras anymore. It's about carving new categories. I don't just think going to 6K is just for making films. I think they'll leverage it for something else. Something big!
 
Future with RED is looking bright!! I can't seem to enjoy working on anything else anymore
 
David Rasberry said:
I think Scarlet accomplished two things for RED.
1. It gave them a lower cost entry level camera whose performance is limited by lower data rate hardware in the same way that computer processors are binned and sold at different prices based on measured performance limits even when otherwise identical.
2. By putting less than Epic grade chips into Scarlet instead of throwing them in the garbage, Red gets a better return on the total cost of producing the chips and that also makes Epic cheaper to produce.

If the labor and material cost of upgrading Scarlet hardware to Dragon is nearly the same or greater than the line manufacturing cost difference between the brains why bother? The labor cost to conduct an upgrade program is far higher than production line assembly costs for a new brain would be. A trade up program makes more sense as a generous alternative.
I don't see Red limiting Scarlet to protect Epic, especially with the recent price reductions. I see them gradually upgrading IQ and performance via software improvements within the lower hardware spec limits. Maybe after Dragon is well established in Epic, they will have quantities of similar substandard components coming out of production that could be used in a new Scarlet Dragon model.
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Perhaps. Lets hope so.
 
Something I just thought of:
What about another tier of Scarlet upgrade options where RED saves the internals taken out of EPICs when they replace them with dragon internals and uses them to offer super low priced upgrades from Scarlet to Epic; so send in your scarlet and they make it an epic by putting someone's old EPIC parts inside of it and they charge a rather low price for it. It won't be competing with EPIC-X if RED stops selling new EPIC-X's anyway in favor of EPIC-D(?) Dragon bodies, so it won't bother EPIC owners so much if Scarlet owners are getting up to an EPIC for some price lower than the $19k value EPIC-X brains now have.

I imagine RED will have a lot of extra EPIC-X internal parts sitting around as they take them out of people's EPICs that are getting upgraded to Dragon, so it helps RED get a use out of that and perhaps subsidize the cost of the Dragon upgrade, while also giving Scarlet owners a low-cost upgrade option to EPIC to offer another option other than trading in for an EPIC Dragon for 2+ times the cost of their Scarlets.

It may not work depending on what parts are involved in upgrades, or brain compatibilites, but its an interesting thought.
 
If RED ever considers this, wouldn't it be smarter to do that via a 2step-trade-in program? 1.) EPIC-X to EPIC-D 2.) Scarlet-X to EPIC-X BT. Saves the whole process of upgrading brains, which for Scarlet-X to EPIC-X might not possible at a reasonable price-point, given the many smaller and bigger differences everywhere (its not just about replacing a few boards).

Come on, forget the funny ideas and lets just wait for RED's upgrade-offer, it will be more than generous for sure and i guess not many people will wish a path to a (BT) EPIC-X after that announcement. ;)

BTW, why do people always assume that a EPIC-D will be that much more expensive than a EPIC-X? The price is not what a EPIC-X costs today + upgrade-costs, building a brand new brain is cheaper compared to this.
 
Maik...

Because I expect the "original" Dragon to be another camera than the upgraded Epic...

Hahahaha

Just guessing, though, but there are some compelling arguments for that.
 
Jeff Whitehurst said:
Agreed, I feel like Jarred has been completely open about the upgrade/rebuild dilemma. The whole point here is that it would be unreasonable to expect RED to design the Dragon sensor to be any less than the best they can build, and the Scarlet hardware canʻt handle it. Hereʻs a few key quotes for those that missed them...
Click to expand...

Yes... thanks for digging those up Jeff. For those following closely, that's the general picture that Red has painted. Some folks are getting hung up on inidividual posts in wha twas clearly an evolving process desigend to assure Scarlet owners had some path to Scarlet.

Maybe if folks keep it up, Red will just stop offering such upgrades... or at least talking about them much.

-sc
 
Steven Caesare said:
Maybe if folks keep it up, Red will just stop offering such upgrades... or at least talking about them much.

-sc
Click to expand...

Right.

How many times can you piss in someone's Cheerios before they stop inviting you to breakfast?
 
I really don't think I will be able to afford the Dragon upgrade if it runs above $10K.

That being said, I am a hobbiest. I jumped into this as wanting a camera that would not detract from my art. The current Scarlet-X is still delivers plus a lot more, well beyond anything I could have dreamed I would own 5-7 years ago.

Heck, if it was any other company, I would not consider buying another camera even if the newest greatest thing came out. An 'upgrade' is just so tempting though.

I hope the Dragon is something that I can afford, but if not my current set up is beyond almost everything else near its price range. I love it.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Sorry, Gavin, you are really going to have to show me where this was "officially promised." Upgrade path - yes, "promised." A specific price, not to my recollection. I could be wrong but I don't think I am. :huh:
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Semantics aside, I distinctly remember hearing from someone at red that it would be less than a new scarlet brain but I would not be surprised if that post was pulled as it seems they figured a bit ago that Dragon would cost more for Epic let alone scarlet. I think we all understand things have changed, and we will see when we see, but it is rather important for people to point this out as at the time this is what we were told(not necessarily "promised"). I'm not going to freak out or anything, it was something said in a casual post by a very excited Jim or Jarred it's far from a rock solid contract.

Just keep calm and carry on!
 
Can't we just ask Jarred? Or is he going to "lie" to cover it up?

Probably not, me thinks.....

And does it really matter. Those that CAN afford it have already budgeted for it. Those that can't (like me) will await the firmware grades. Those that can't justify it - probably will anyway... All of this at whatever cost $10k or $20k...
 
There seems to be a lot of back and forth on this topic. Its lame...you invested in a product that you yourself chose. take stock of your reason why you invested in that product. was it to be used as a tool to incorporate into your business workflow? or was it purchased to be a paper weight, maybe a status symbol among peers?

The dragon will be the new hot -stuff until it is superseded by a newer technology that is brought out later down the road. if there is an upgrade path on either epic or scarlet thats great if not so be it. these cameras that RED released are very powerful pieces of tech at an affordable price point targeted at the different markets of camera users. There are many out there that are not using the current features in these camera to the fullest potential. options for RED customers are being looked into but at the end of the day this is a business and business forecast changes based on new information and market.

as far as dr. in post with the current epic/scarlet using 16bit float you can separate manipulate A TON of information in your shot without the use of HDRx. Smoke 2013 offers really great tools
 
Stephen Matthews said:
Semantics aside, I distinctly remember hearing from someone at red that it would be less than a new scarlet brain but I would not be surprised if that post was pulled as it seems they figured a bit ago that Dragon would cost more for Epic let alone scarlet. I think we all understand things have changed, and we will see when we see, but it is rather important for people to point this out as at the time this is what we were told(not necessarily "promised"). I'm not going to freak out or anything, it was something said in a casual post by a very excited Jim or Jarred it's far from a rock solid contract.

Just keep calm and carry on!
Click to expand...

Haha - the conspiracy theory; :ohmy: they said it, but pulled the thread so it didn't make them look like they were wrong. LOL I am not convinced. I think we were neither "told" nor "promised" (nor was it even "strongly implied") what the pricing would be for any possible Scarlet to Dragon upgrade.
 
My 2 cents: I was at the Nov 3rd Scarlet event last year, purchased my camera on the spot and have been putting it to good use. The Scarlet has allowed me to learn the system; the menus, color science, the post workflow, etc. I absolutely LOVE the camera in its current form. I'm still improving my shooting skills and haven't come close to realizing its full potential - but our results are improving with every project.


Count me in for the trade up from Scarlet-X to Epic-D. Thanks for the support and for the opportunity for the full upgrade program. Couldn't be more excited. Cheers guys.
 
For those of you who are being hard on the Scarlet owners who've expressed concern over Dragon upgrade pricing, consider this:

I might be wrong, but I think it's important to attempt to understand WHY RED is extending this generous offer to Scarlet owners. Is it because they're a cool company? Perhaps...but I don't think that's the whole story.

If you recall, this type of offer was only supposed to be a one-time deal as a "Thank you" to RED ONE owners who bought in when others were writing RED off, even after the camera was out there proving itself.

Yes, it's a very generous offer but is it comprised of 100% generosity or does RED feel some degree of responsibility (for lack of a better word) for Scarleteers' unique situation?

We knew Dragon was called Dragon and that it was the next generation sensor before we knew what Scarlet was going to end up being. With RED's claims of Scarlet's upgradeability, an assumption was made that the upgrade would be to Dragon.

To be clear, RED never stated a Scarlet upgrade would necessarily be to Dragon. On the other hand, among the many Dragonized Scarlet threads out there, no one from RED ever said, "Whoa. Hold your horses on that Scarlet with a Dragon in it jazz."

Now, we all know what happens when you assume but, given the manner in which most things usually get upgraded, it was a reasonable assumption to make. Epic-X customers made the exact same assumption for their cameras. Why wouldn't they?

It wasn't until much later that we discovered Dragon might be too much for Scarlet. As it turned out, it was even too much for Epic without some beefing up. This puts Scarlet's upgradeability to Dragon in a peculiar position because the upgrade price doesn't scale like it does with Epic or pretty much any other type of upgrade. Instead of paying a fraction of the initial cost you're looking at maybe (by most estimates) 1 - 1 1/2 times the original purchase price.

Also keep in mind that for many people, buying the Scarlet and accessories was a financial stretch that didn't leave much wiggle room.

Realizing the above mentioned, realizing there was some ambiguity and uncertainty on RED's part that made "upgrade" a nebulous term based on moving targets, realizing they probably had the world's best commercially available sensor on the planet, realizing their engineering goals may have shifted, realizing they lit a fire under everyone's ass in the entry level cinema camera market (esp. BMD), and realizing a host of other crap, I think RED is going to try to make right (or help alleviate, if that phrase is more suitable) a situation they helped create for Scarlet owners, however unintentional it was.

Otherwise, the alternative to their generosity is behaving how we probably all agree most other companies would...like dicks. But, they're not most companies. It's what they set out not to be. Hence, the generosity. But it's a generosity based in part on knowing the role they played in this and not solely because they're Saints. So...

1) Go a little easier on the folks who thought they were buying into continued RED innovation at a price they could afford. The very offer of a trade-in program suggests the concerns of Scarlet owners' upgrade path to Dragon are valid ones and RED is going to help ease that transition as best they can.

2) To the worried Scarlet owners: An upgraded Scarlet can still mean many things other than Dragon or Epic-X. For instance, RED could also offer an upgrade that consisted of a subset of current Epic features that wouldn't carry the full blown price difference. 5K at 60fps max would satisfy the claim of upgradeability, could be offered for a more affordable price, wouldn't totally step on Epic-X (I suspect most owners will jump on Dragon anyway) and meet many people's needs.

Like I said, I could be wrong.
 
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i am one of the scarlet buyers who had the promised dragon upgrade in mind at the time of purchase....i also knew that "more then 6000$ would not be 6001$ but probably close to 10000$....that just made sense.....
i was hoping to get a scarlet dragon.....same chip as epic dragon but lower fps, more compressed,....and save a little, make the upgrade less painful....
turns out (or looks like right now) there will only be one dragon....i will be able to trade in my scarlet (or think about it and hold on to a second body...this very much depends on the trade in value but i know now it won't be more then 6 or 7000$ at best).....and i also know that a new dragon (epic) will be 19000+6000+a little more.....
i also know that this camera will shoot 6k@100?fps, 18+stops DR, all at 2000iso.....that pretty much means i will never have to buy another camera......i mean really....i probably will but it will get harder and harder to justify.....6K is a sweet spot for still photography, the DR is what i have been dreaming of my whole life and i will deal with the iso 2000.....
the only reason NOT to get this is the simple truth that someone, sometime along the way will have similar specs for less money.....i don't really see too much happening in that direction...yet....and most sane people do not want to deal with all that data....so the investment should be safe for a while....and later? well, just because it got cheaper does not make it less useful....
the real question is if dragon can deliver and when it will deliver.....and it seems like there is plenty of time to scrape together some cash, sell a kidney.....
or just soften the blow now, sell scarlet now, get an epic and pay the rest later when upgrading to dragon in a year....
 
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