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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet and Dragon...

Terry VerHaar said:
Haha - the conspiracy theory; :ohmy: they said it, but pulled the thread so it didn't make them look like they were wrong. LOL I am not convinced. I think we were neither "told" nor "promised" (nor was it even "strongly implied") what the pricing would be for any possible Scarlet to Dragon upgrade.
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I don't think it's a conspiracy I just think that finding the post with more than 10,000 posts between the two of us isn't very likely except for the easy to find FAQ which isn't as specific.

As I remember the exchange it went something like.

"It's not really an upgrade if it costs more than a new camera."
"It won't be more than you paid for for the body."

Obviously that was pre-the-fact-that-it-would-be-an-epic. ;)
 
Jarred has said time and time again that the underdogs and young and upcoming shooters mean a lot to them. I trust that. They will go out of their way to make things possible for the small guy. ...
 
Brian Boyer said:
To the worried Scarlet owners: An upgraded Scarlet can still mean many things other than Dragon or Epic-X. For instance, RED could also offer an upgrade that consisted of a subset of current Epic features that wouldn't carry the full blown price difference. 5K at 60fps max would satisfy the claim of upgradeability, could be offered for a more affordable price, wouldn't totally step on Epic-X (I suspect most owners will jump on Dragon anyway) and meet many people's needs.
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Now there's an interesting idea Brian, and one i'd be very interested in.. 50fps at 5K and say, 90fps at 4K for what $1k / $2k?

SK
 
Did Jim or Jarred ever say that Dragon upgrade for Scarlet will be less than cost of new (Scarlet) brain or is that a lie few people are spreading here? Answers that don't include source have no value.
 
Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
Something I just thought of:
What about another tier of Scarlet upgrade options where RED saves the internals taken out of EPICs when they replace them with dragon internals and uses them to offer super low priced upgrades from Scarlet to Epic; so send in your scarlet and they make it an epic by putting someone's old EPIC parts inside of it and they charge a rather low price for it. It won't be competing with EPIC-X if RED stops selling new EPIC-X's anyway in favor of EPIC-D(?) Dragon bodies, so it won't bother EPIC owners so much if Scarlet owners are getting up to an EPIC for some price lower than the $19k value EPIC-X brains now have.

I imagine RED will have a lot of extra EPIC-X internal parts sitting around as they take them out of people's EPICs that are getting upgraded to Dragon, so it helps RED get a use out of that and perhaps subsidize the cost of the Dragon upgrade, while also giving Scarlet owners a low-cost upgrade option to EPIC to offer another option other than trading in for an EPIC Dragon for 2+ times the cost of their Scarlets.

It may not work depending on what parts are involved in upgrades, or brain compatibilites, but its an interesting thought.
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Brilliant!
 
Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
Something I just thought of:
What about another tier of Scarlet upgrade options where RED saves the internals taken out of EPICs when they replace them with dragon internals and uses them to offer super low priced upgrades from Scarlet to Epic; so send in your scarlet and they make it an epic by putting someone's old EPIC parts inside of it and they charge a rather low price for it. It won't be competing with EPIC-X if RED stops selling new EPIC-X's anyway in favor of EPIC-D(?) Dragon bodies, so it won't bother EPIC owners so much if Scarlet owners are getting up to an EPIC for some price lower than the $19k value EPIC-X brains now have.

I imagine RED will have a lot of extra EPIC-X internal parts sitting around as they take them out of people's EPICs that are getting upgraded to Dragon, so it helps RED get a use out of that and perhaps subsidize the cost of the Dragon upgrade, while also giving Scarlet owners a low-cost upgrade option to EPIC to offer another option other than trading in for an EPIC Dragon for 2+ times the cost of their Scarlets.

It may not work depending on what parts are involved in upgrades, or brain compatibilites, but its an interesting thought.
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Interesting thought indeed.
 
Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
Something I just thought of:
What about another tier of Scarlet upgrade options where RED saves the internals taken out of EPICs when they replace them with dragon internals and uses them to offer super low priced upgrades from Scarlet to Epic; so send in your scarlet and they make it an epic by putting someone's old EPIC parts inside of it and they charge a rather low price for it. It won't be competing with EPIC-X if RED stops selling new EPIC-X's anyway in favor of EPIC-D(?) Dragon bodies, so it won't bother EPIC owners so much if Scarlet owners are getting up to an EPIC for some price lower than the $19k value EPIC-X brains now have.

I imagine RED will have a lot of extra EPIC-X internal parts sitting around as they take them out of people's EPICs that are getting upgraded to Dragon, so it helps RED get a use out of that and perhaps subsidize the cost of the Dragon upgrade, while also giving Scarlet owners a low-cost upgrade option to EPIC to offer another option other than trading in for an EPIC Dragon for 2+ times the cost of their Scarlets.

It may not work depending on what parts are involved in upgrades, or brain compatibilites, but its an interesting thought.
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And than, RED can sell Scarlet internal parts to Canon 5D owners..
 
lol too funny pat/gary!
 
What is no joke is Noah's idea, an upgrade to EPIC Misterium-X for Scarlet owners, I'd pay for that since I guess I won't be able to afford the jump from Scarlet to DRAGON
 
Enrique Blein said:
What is no joke is Noah's idea, an upgrade to EPIC Misterium-X for Scarlet owners, I'd pay for that since I guess I won't be able to afford the jump from Scarlet to DRAGON
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Admittedly, it would nice to be able to go from Scarlet>Epic-X for a modest price (like really modest), but only if you could eventually go from your "new to you" Epic-X>Epic-Dragon for a similarly modest price down the line after the dust settles (2014-15).

Personally, I'm not sure there are going to be many Scarlet owners who purchased their SX for ~$10k, who will be able to afford another $10k-$20k(?) going to Epic-Dragon (me included). If they could do that, they could probably afford to keep their Scarlet as b-cam and pay the flat $25k to get an entirely new Epic-Dragon. At that upgrade price ($10-20k), it'd be hard to justify getting a single, new Epic-Dragon brain, when you could be getting another one (or two) kitted out Scarlet(s). Similarly, obsolescence obsolete takes a beating, since it'd be even more expensive than having to buy an entirely new camera every other year like you have to do with Sony/Canon/Panny/etc. (except with them, you'd end up with two cameras, one upgraded over the previous model).

Conversely, in my case even if I had an Epic/Dragon (a camera that costs 2x+ more), I would NOT be able to charge twice my current, Scarlet-based rate. I have a feeling most Scarlet users are in the same boat, so I'm not sure how they will be able to justify/rationalize the 2x cost in their current "business model." Expecting to get rental revenue because you've got a Epic/Dragon, especially after what last years price drop has shown, would be a very slippery slop for the unestablished who don't have a the proper kit (back-up brain, lenses, lighting, etc.) like the big boys do.

I'm intrigued to see how this plays, but I'm not as optimistic as some REDusers (I doubt it'll actually play out in Scarlet owners' [aka budget minded] favour, so much as it will be used to take the wind out of the sail of those saying a 'Dragon upgrade was promised'). Another thing I'm hoping for is that the upgrade program doesn't have an impulse-buy inducing time-limit (e.g. 'you have to upgrade within the next 2 months or the Scarlet-to-Dragon offer goes kaput'), since I'd like to have as much time as possible to see if it's actually worth it (for me) to upgrade.

Like I said, it's intriguing. I'm definitely interested and no other manufacturer would offer such a thing... That said, all is not roses and a $6k-9k upgrade to a Scarlet-Dragon as was originally intended would probably have been more affordable and given all the perks of Dragon (ISO2000 & 20stops just at a reduced framerate).
 
I'd prefer to get my Scarlet dragonized in an affordable way - over an Epic MX upgrade path.

Limitations regarding resolution, framerates and compression would be ok for me.
A downsized (former Scarlet) Epic D would be exciting!

I just want the increased DR and sensitivity, as 4k perfectly does it for me in the near future!
(Not that I would mind 5k at 25fps.)

I know that others have different preferences.

It would be really cool to be able to choose between different packages...
 
For me 4K 120 fps at 5:1 would be MORE than OK even if my Scarlet-X stayed with revamped boards and Misterium-X. Some times in studio I can't even cover the 13+ stops with the lights I work, imagine 18+, and the 4K end up being 640x480 where my ads are placed !
 
Sorry for the late reply - lots of work.

I am personally not calling the Scarlet a second class camera - DOPs in this shitty germany film industry do. I own one - I rent it through a very big professional 15 year old rental company that has pretty much every camera on shelf that can be rented. They did see a point with the scarlet they tried really really hard to push it on clients - especially those that have small budgets (music videos f.e.) - they almost all want the epic and if they can´t have that they opt for alexa. Nobody wants the scarlet (or the sonys or the canons btw. - they have the same acceptance problem).
I don´t know if its the market here specifically but its what it is. Everybody want highframerates or the superior color of the Alexa (these are clients words not mine) - as said I care less - I love the camera to death I didn´t buy it to rent it out in the first place - but would have liked to make some money off it to get some more additions. Right now the rentals inside a year can be counted on two hands. Thats low - especially with the propping it got from the company. And I personally - well I would love HighFrameRates too ;) so I jump on the opportunity if it arrives probably - if it arrives - if its affordable. Its a personal camera everything else is secondary - so still it baffles me that people disregard the camera as second class - but arris word is gospel in this community.
 
fALk Gärtner said:
Sorry for the late reply - lots of work.

I am personally not calling the Scarlet a second class camera - DOPs in this shitty germany film industry do. I own one - I rent it through a very big professional 15 year old rental company that has pretty much every camera on shelf that can be rented. They did see a point with the scarlet they tried really really hard to push it on clients - especially those that have small budgets (music videos f.e.) - they almost all want the epic and if they can´t have that they opt for alexa. Nobody wants the scarlet (or the sonys or the canons btw. - they have the same acceptance problem).
I don´t know if its the market here specifically but its what it is. Everybody want highframerates or the superior color of the Alexa (these are clients words not mine) - as said I care less - I love the camera to death I didn´t buy it to rent it out in the first place - but would have liked to make some money off it to get some more additions. Right now the rentals inside a year can be counted on two hands. Thats low - especially with the propping it got from the company. And I personally - well I would love HighFrameRates too ;) so I jump on the opportunity if it arrives probably - if it arrives - if its affordable. Its a personal camera everything else is secondary - so still it baffles me that people disregard the camera as second class - but arris word is gospel in this community.
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I'm renting the shit out of my Scarlet. At the first place I bought it for my own projects and just wanted to try if someone would rent it. Since August its always out and I had to buy a second Scarlet for my own projects, since many people use it for documentarys, TV stuff and so on. Those are the people who dont really need slomo. Now I bought a almost new set of 16mm Lenses which cover 2K and some 3K so that people can use 60FPS without crop. To me its one of the best cameras....and btw when I shoot slomo musicvideos, the actor has to sing twice the speed of the song. I want to see a rapper who can perform for 120FPS :D
 
We shot with both cameras and are very happy with the end results.

Yes, Epic is better but 6K Dragon chip isn't necessary for us at this time. Nice to know the up-coming future is RED Dragon. Looking forward the new specs & price.
 
As much as I would love to jump up to the epic it's not necessary for me for the foreseeable future... Well other than being able to get off speeds at 4k. I wish it were still a situation in which the scarlet were able to be dragonized but things change... Hopefully now with the end of the line for the redone and the dragon looming over we may see the scarlet pushed to its limits to be the 4k, and epic the 6k high end cinema camera. If 4k got 48fps I wouldn't need an upgrade for the foreseeable future, and all my content could stay at or above the UHD acquisition standard. We all know this may not be a possibility but hopefully some one there at red is tinkering with what else may be able to be squeezed from the scarlet
 
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