Scarlet and Dragon...

[Scott Crawley]

Well, I strongly disagree. The fact that RED manufacture their cameras here in the US, is, to me, a strong sales argument -- and I'd gladly pay a bit more to keep it that way.

-- peer

You disagree with what exactly? Half of my remark was a question. It is a fact that moving the retrofit overseas would reduce the cost of the operation because it is a service, and labor overseas is less expensive. How do you disagree with that?

 

[Peer Landa]

You disagree with what exactly?

Perhaps I misunderstood -- if so, I apologize. To me it looked as is you wanted RED to move their manufacturing overseas.


-- peer

 

[Brian Merlen]

Scott as great as it might be to get the cost savings by costing other Americans their jobs, its a bad move for Red. I think people have pride in buying American made products. I also think a lot of those overseas options, like Foxconn have loose lips, or knockoffs being made in the same factory. I think giving away Americas best camera technology to a foreign entity is a bad idea. We're gonna find Epik knock offs on ebay then lol!

 

[Scott Crawley]

Scott as great as it might be to get the cost savings by costing other Americans their jobs, its a bad move for Red. I think people have pride in buying American made products. I also think a lot of those overseas options, like Foxconn have loose lips, or knockoffs being made in the same factory. I think giving away Americas best camera technology to a foreign entity is a bad idea. We're gonna find Epik knock offs on ebay then lol!

Hey man, I'm not promoting any particular strategy. I'm just playing armchair quarterback. It's an analysis.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Me too, but in my case its couch quarterback lol!

 

[Brian Merlen]

I think Red is trying to move away from the low end market and have one system Ray. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing for anyone, provided they are liquid in time to upgrade. I think a lot of the Scarlet guys are concerned about being liquid in time. So personally I am hoping that there isn't strict time frames for needing to have your cash in line by such and such a date and that the program is like the M to MX program in that its open ended. I think any Scarlet owner wouldn't mind moving up the chain to the high end model, the only issue is eventually having the money for such a move. So I personally am gonna hedge the situation by saving up like a mad man and assuming its not an open ended trade in program, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't concerned myself about being liquid within the given time frame I need it. Though I suppose it wouldn't be the end of the world to miss the deadline and buy a new brain if I had to due to financial reasons...

 

[Simon Knight]

I think Ray, Gunleik and myself are all in agreement here..

To be honest I wouldn't say that the Scarlet is actually lower end or cheaper (ok financially yes!) if marketed correctly it could be for a completely different set of filming requirements..

What actually, apart from higher frame rates (in 4k and 5K) differentiates the Scarlet from the Epic?

I'm just not convinced Scarlet is about to be ditched... If I read correctly, it took Hell and Earth to get it here in the beginning so why kill it off in just over 1 product year? That's unheard of in the 'broadcast' world. And it's safe to NOT call the Scarlet a consumer camera isn't it? Until I see it for sale in Target/PC World..!

SK

 

[Scott Crawley]

But it IS one system. Don't let the names confuse you. Epic is the older brother; more mature and faster in it's processing but Scarlet is quite literally the little sister. Her parts <snip> are just slower. In that light, it makes perfect sense for Scarlet to receive Epic's hand me down parts when Epic out grows them.

It opens an intermediate upgrade option for Scarlet users: upgrade to Epic MX by taking a set of faster, used components (or a full brain swap) or go all in and trade up to Epic Dragon. Done and Done. I'm certain it is not as easy as I make it sound, but it's a thought.

It sounds like a win:win scenario:
~Epic value goes up and so Scarlet also retains value.
~Scarlet users don't have to be financially able to move all the way to the top to upgrade to faster fps.
~Epic MX components continue to have long life, possibly extended life. That is a good value both for the customers and Red.
~It puts a potentially more sustainable plan in place for future upgrades while firmly differentiating product lines.

I state "more sustainable" with the assumption that Red is currently going about it in a different way, but it seems likely that this is exactly what is being attempted but the existing Epic boards just don't physically fit into the Scarlet box, necessitating the trade in. Therefore I repeat and echo the question: What's so bloody wrong with a trade in?

I think Red is trying to move away from the low end market and have one system Ray. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing for anyone, provided they are liquid in time to upgrade. I think a lot of the Scarlet guys are concerned about being liquid in time. So personally I am hoping that there isn't strict time frames for needing to have your cash in line by such and such a date and that the program is like the M to MX program in that its open ended. I think any Scarlet owner wouldn't mind moving up the chain to the high end model, the only issue is eventually having the money for such a move. So I personally am gonna hedge the situation by saving up like a mad man and assuming its not an open ended trade in program, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't concerned myself about being liquid within the given time frame I need it. Though I suppose it wouldn't be the end of the world to miss the deadline and buy a new brain if I had to due to financial reasons...

orange =edits

 

[Bob Gundu]

You can then call it the "Scarlic"

But it IS one system. Don't let the names confuse you. Epic is the older brother; more mature and faster in it's processing but Scarelet is quite literally the little sister. Her parts (DNA if you will) are just slower. In that light, it makes perfect sense for Scarlet to receive Epic's hand me down parts when Epic out grows them.

It opens an intermediate upgrade option for Scarlet users: upgrade to Epic MX by taking a set of faster, used components (or a full brain swap) or go all in and trade in for Epic Dragon. Done and Done. I'm certain it is not as easy as I make it sound, but it's an idea.

It sounds like a win:win scenario:
~Epic value goes up and so Scarlet also retains value.
~Scarlet users don't have to be financially able to move all the way to the top to upgrade to faster fps.
~Epic MX components continue to have long life, possibly extended life. That is a good value both for the customers and Red.

 

[Scott Crawley]

You can then call it the "Scarlic"

Sounds tasty, but then so does Scarlet!

 

[Simon Knight]

Scott's idea improves things too. Doesn't matter where you join the party, you can always upgrade.
Scarlet - entry point - upgrades to Epic and Dragon
Epic - Mid range - upgrade to Dragon
Dragon - top end - you 'da man! (upgrade to God)

SK

 

[Scott Crawley]

Scott's idea improves things too. Doesn't matter where you join the party, you can always upgrade.
Scarlet - entry point - upgrades to Epic and Dragon
Epic - Mid range - upgrade to Dragon
Dragon - top end - you 'da man! (upgrade to God)

SK

Thank you Simon, but I'm sure it isn't my idea. It seems to be what was laid out all along. We (the customers) are only now thinking it through. Wait and see what they offer, then give all credit to whom it belongs; The Red Team.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I think Red is trying to move away from the low end market and have one system Ray. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing for anyone, provided they are liquid in time to upgrade. I think a lot of the Scarlet guys are concerned about being liquid in time. So personally I am hoping that there isn't strict time frames for needing to have your cash in line by such and such a date and that the program is like the M to MX program in that its open ended. I think any Scarlet owner wouldn't mind moving up the chain to the high end model, the only issue is eventually having the money for such a move. So I personally am gonna hedge the situation by saving up like a mad man and assuming its not an open ended trade in program, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't concerned myself about being liquid within the given time frame I need it. Though I suppose it wouldn't be the end of the world to miss the deadline and buy a new brain if I had to due to financial reasons...

This suggests that the only thing keeping people from wanting to use Scarlet is whether one can afford it or not. But consider that there are many people whose projects are such that an Epic is not needed nor is the cost justified as a purely business-oriented tool. Markets are often not segmented by price but by the stratification of needs within that marketplace. If the needs of my work are satisfied by Scarlet and the budgets such that an extra $10-12K per camera is a waste, then the Scarlet is perfect for me.

My only observation might be that, given that the support gear is the same for both systems, the relative price difference between a full outfitted Scarlet and an equally dressed up Epic is too close to really satisfy different market segments. If the camera bodies were $10K and $50K, then two markets are clear. But when a full outfitted Epic is ~$35K and the Scarlet ~$25K, then the difference really doesn't clearly split the market into differemt segments.

 

[Paul Schneider]

Paul, as a genuine question.. Why Not?

Arri made use of this system for years in the Super16 days. SR1/2/3 for normal filming and their HS models for high-speed. Hence the doubling of costs..

SK

Hi Simon. Obviously I don't know what RED is or is not prepared to do, however I just don't see it happening in any significant way. First because it undermines the flagship product and those that invested in that product, and secondly because (I think) RED believes the Scarlet to be an already capable performer in the areas for which it was designed. In skilled hands the current configuration easily delivers more bang than an Arri Alexa costing multiple times more. To me, its a bargain.

Again its all speculation, but I can certainly assure that if the Scarlet was "given" higher frame rates at greater resolution I'd find very little reason for Epic to be found on set. The same can be said for Dragon at the moment, as a large amount of professional situations with traditional lighting only need the increased resolution (or latitude) for occasional or singular purposes.

While you are totally correct about Arri and its Super16 days, the application of a business model from those times is (unfortunately) almost completely irrelevant to the tech of today. The ARRI 16SR in all its forms was a staple for 20...or even 30 years. Thats a lot of time to recoup costs. Today is maybe 18months... or even shorter... kinda crazy.

As a Scarlet owner myself I'd love to see more capability added to my camera, but I certainly don't expect it.

Anyway. Thats my two cents. If I'm wrong, happy day.

 

[Paul Schneider]

Blimey... anyone want to have a go before I do?

Seriously though Falk... Surely it depends where you're starting from? I am small budget here. $20k for the Scarlet setup is big biscuits to me and about 6-9 months of work. Hard work. But I can justify that. The thought of "ponying up" a "bit more money" - potentially another $20k to get an Epic Dragon is just not possible and reasonable. 4K is where i'm happy to be working with for the next 12-24 months. I know my work and what I can get with the Scarlet. If you are about to shoot a movie for IMAX then you need that Dragon... I don't..!

I just think calling the Scarlet a second class camera is an incredible insult to a great many people.. Especially until I see work that could not be completed on the Scarlet and therefore justified the Epic..

with apologies..

SK

Agreed.
Scarlet is an solid camera. It delivers on set. Its a no-brainer if you know your business, your creative ambitions...and have a plan.
Red put a real unit in the grasp of a lot of folks. Short of making sure the camera delivers as promised Red has little responsibility to deliver any more or to "protect" the investment.

Now, the fact that they do...is very unique.

Give a mouse a cookie...he'll ask for a glass of milk...

 

[David Rasberry]

Hi Simon. Obviously I don't know what RED is or is not prepared to do, however I just don't see it happening in any significant way. First because it undermines the flagship product and those that invested in that product, and secondly because (I think) RED believes the Scarlet to be an already capable performer in the areas for which it was designed. In skilled hands the current configuration easily delivers more bang than an Arri Alexa costing multiple times more. To me, its a bargain.

Again its all speculation, but I can certainly assure that if the Scarlet was "given" higher frame rates at greater resolution I'd find very little reason for Epic to be found on set. The same can be said for Dragon at the moment, as a large amount of professional situations with traditional lighting only need the increased resolution (or latitude) for occasional or singular purposes.

While you are totally correct about Arri and its Super16 days, the application of a business model from those times is (unfortunately) almost completely irrelevant to the tech of today. The ARRI 16SR in all its forms was a staple for 20...or even 30 years. Thats a lot of time to recoup costs. Today is maybe 18months... or even shorter... kinda crazy.

As a Scarlet owner myself I'd love to see more capability added to my camera, but I certainly don't expect it.

Anyway. Thats my two cents. If I'm wrong, happy day.

I think Scarlet accomplished two things for RED.
1. It gave them a lower cost entry level camera whose performance is limited by lower data rate hardware in the same way that computer processors are binned and sold at different prices based on measured performance limits even when otherwise identical.
2. By putting less than Epic grade chips into Scarlet instead of throwing them in the garbage, Red gets a better return on the total cost of producing the chips and that also makes Epic cheaper to produce.

If the labor and material cost of upgrading Scarlet hardware to Dragon is nearly the same or greater than the line manufacturing cost difference between the brains why bother? The labor cost to conduct an upgrade program is far higher than production line assembly costs for a new brain would be. A trade up program makes more sense as a generous alternative.
I don't see Red limiting Scarlet to protect Epic, especially with the recent price reductions. I see them gradually upgrading IQ and performance via software improvements within the lower hardware spec limits. Maybe after Dragon is well established in Epic, they will have quantities of similar substandard components coming out of production that could be used in a new Scarlet Dragon model.

 

[Randall Weatherington]

Here is what I am getting from information that RED has put out.

The Dragon sensor is capable of putting out more than what the ASICs in the Epic-X are capable of handling. Hence the new spin of ASICs in order to tame the Dragon.
Yes, the current ASICs can handle a lot of what the Dragon can do, but leaves them gasping for breath when pushed to do everything that the Dragon is capable of doing.

The same held true with the Red One when the M-X sensor came out.
The guts in the Red One were quite happy with the original M sensor, but, again, were gasping for breath when pushed to handle everything that the M-X could deliver.
Since the new Epic DSMC design was being produced, it was financially impractical to design new electronic guts for the Red One.
However, it appears that with the new ASICs for the Dragon, a modified electronics package will still fit in the Epic case. Hence the upgrade for Epic owners.

I am gathering, also, that what is being said about Scarlet to Dragon upgrade is that, if desired, the electronics package inside the Scarlet would have to be completely changed in order to utilize a Dragon sensor.
This is sounding like the electronics in the current Scarlet are sub-par for handling the Dragon sensor.
Since the case of the camera is one of the least expensive parts, it pretty much means getting a new camera, even though one would end up with the same case.
This would explain why Red really does not want to do Scarlet upgrades to Dragon.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

What is frustrating is watching wild Speculation turn into hopes which then turn into expectations which then turn into bitter complaints when RED doesn't make good on the "promises" they never made.

I agree with this sentiment but to be clear:

November 2011

Can Scarlet-X be upgraded to the new Dragon sensor when it is released?
Yes. However the upgrade will be more expensive than upgrading an EPIC due to the necessity to change several primary boards. There will still be data rate limitations to Scarlet after the upgrade as compared with EPIC.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?65760-SCARLET-ANNOUNCEMENT&p=855514&viewfull=1#post855514

April 2012

Dragon Sensor Upgrade: 6k Resolution, 15+ stops native Dynamic Range, 120fps @ Full 5k. Epic upgrade $6,000. Scarlet upgrade - TBD

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?77169-Dragon

It was also repeatedly promised that the upgrade price would be less than the cost of a new body ($10k). That wasn't wild speculation that was officially promised. So if you bought a Scarlet you were offered an upgrade path and you were reassured several times that it would be between $6k to $10k. Since they can just give us Dragon Epics without having to make an MX Epic, rip everything out and rebuild another epic... I would hope that we can get it for around $15k which would be 50% more than predicted. So while I think the new plan of trade-in/upgrading is by far the best plan--it could potentially be a huge financial burden for those who bought a Scarlet assuming it wouldn't be end-of-life'ed 12 months later.

Historically speaking, by which I mean for RED One customers, RED has taken care of their customers so I agree with the latter sentiment of "wait and see". RED has plenty of time to lay out their plan which I am still assuming will be more than fair and hopefully even better than my expectations.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

<snip>

It was also repeatedly promised that the upgrade price would be less than the cost of a new body ($10k). That wasn't wild speculation that was officially promised. So if you bought a Scarlet you were offered an upgrade path and you were reassured several times that it would be between $6k to $10k...

<snip>

Sorry, Gavin, you are really going to have to show me where this was "officially promised." Upgrade path - yes, "promised." A specific price, not to my recollection. I could be wrong but I don't think I am. :huh:

 

[Bob Gundu]

I am 200 percent confident that either Jim or Jarred mentioned that it would be less than the cost of the body. I searched the threads and all I found was me be back in June I think relaying that info. So, I wouldn't be surprised if late at night, as Doc Brown would say, it was "Erased from existence!". In any case, I don't really care what was promised. Only what I promised myself, and that was to keep looking forward and make films worth giving a damn about. Oh and hopefully go gluten-free one day.

Sorry, Gavin, you are really going to have to show me where this was "officially promised." Upgrade path - yes, "promised." A specific price, not to my recollection. I could be wrong but I don't think I am. :huh: