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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet and Dragon...

the above is so true..... you only have to swing by the Blackmagic forum to witness hearsay and desperation at work..

SK
 
It's not so much the product expectations, but expectations of the way Red will stand by existing customers. The R1 -> Epic upgrade offer was a real bonanza, an incredible display of generosity, but realistically it can't be repeated to such a degree. I'm sure Red will do their best, if only because the product lifecycle of Scarlet looks like it will have been pretty short, but nobody should get their hopes up for any more than that. I'm guessing a flat fee trade-in price which is a portion of the scarlet brain price off a full Epic Dragon (similar to Epic stage 3, but a lower percentage).
 
Well I'm super glad to be part of the RED family. I think my scarlets are the best pre-production camera you can get for the money ... by far. I was in pre-production for a year, working out vfx & sfx, workflows, looks, color approach, actor pre-production shooting, lens testing (both PL and EF), pre-vis - and the scarlet did it all. If i did a year of pre-production on the epic the rental costs would have killed me, plus the pre-production footage of the scarlet allowed me to determine the budget approach the film would take. When I moved to production with the epic, it was almost seamless. As I'm working on the epic monochrome, it has some of the features of the dragon in that it has increased dynamic range, iso and has similar pixel resolution (the 6k dragon debayered i'd think will be close to the 5k monochrome since no debayer is required for the monochrome) - so I feel well positioned for the future. Getting my scarlet is one of the smarter business decisions i've ever made, and everything I've recently heard/seen from red just reinforces that viewpoint. It's also allowed me to basically "copy" the workflows of some of the best movies made recently, which drastically reduces the risk of my production.
 
I woke up the other day thinking how happy I am with my Scarlet. Sure I want a Dragon for the fps, but truthfully these cat images I shot are the best ones ever, way better then on my smart phone...
 
First off, Brian, that's hilarious. Secondly, I'm excited about the possibilities of upgrading Scarlets to Dragon. The sheer flexibility on RED's part falls completely into the realm of generosity and mutual loyalty to their customers. I'm not a RED owner myself but this really makes me, as a consumer, much more comfortable in considering starting out with a Scarlet instead of leaping financially to Epic right off the bat.
 
My suggestion for anyone worried about their Scarlet in any way should get out an shoot with it more often.

For all the talk, the rants and the hand-wringing, I could stand to see more creativity coming from the Scarlet set. You folks wanted this camera so badly you could taste it...wheres the goods?
 
Maybe Germany is a difficult market for a scarlet as it not only competes with Epic but also everybody just wants that "other" camera - my scarlet is with a bigger rental and they really try to convince customers to use the scarlet rather then that other camera (which is never available cause its rented out all the time). Shrugs - as said I really don´t care that much - was an investment for myself - would have been good to make a bit money off it to justify some nice goodies to go along with it but I am happy with what I have as well. And to the other poster - yes I agree 20k is steep - we don´t know yet if it will be that much - I highly doubt it - I think not even RED knows at this point how much it will be - so lets see where we at in a year down the read shall we?
 
ok in the danger of sounding like the other worriers around here..

Actually there is a fantastic place for Scarlet in RED's product line. If it were"tweaked" and by that I mean got a few of the Epics tricks - nothing it couldn't do but I suspect it could get a bit more fps etc... Then if you want shootable 5k (so that's general TV/film/commercial) then you use Scarlet. If you want super fast 6K then you go Epic(Dragon)
Then we are sounding a lot like the Arri range of cameras, in both film and digital guise... One camera for general and the HS/HD model for high-speed/high-detail...

Just a thought... RED chaps?

SK
 
Simon Knight said:
ok in the danger of sounding like the other worriers around here..

Actually there is a fantastic place for Scarlet in RED's product line. If it were"tweaked" and by that I mean got a few of the Epics tricks - nothing it couldn't do but I suspect it could get a bit more fps etc... Then if you want shootable 5k (so that's general TV/film/commercial) then you use Scarlet. If you want super fast 6K then you go Epic(Dragon)
Then we are sounding a lot like the Arri range of cameras, in both film and digital guise... One camera for general and the HS/HD model for high-speed/high-detail...

Just a thought... RED chaps?

SK
Click to expand...

This would be lovely, but in all likelyhood its not going to happen.
 
Afraid of dipping my toes in here again, but... if Scarlet got full working 4k including hdrx for PAL/25 land, it would stand well inn all competition, without killing off Epic sales and rentals too much, me thinks.

Now.
Said it.

Now
Duck.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Afraid of dipping my toes in here again, but... if Scarlet got full working 4k including hdrx for PAL/25 land, it would stand well inn all competition, without killing off Epic sales and rentals too much, me thinks.

Now.
Said it.

Now
Duck.
Click to expand...

You sir, are a brave man.

(but I agree)
 
I agree with Gunleik. I think that's kinda the key with scarlet now. Make it a fully functioning 4k camera ( if possible ). So we would get 48/50 fps for slo mo 24/25 fps for HDRx and nothing in the 5k world. Then dragon is 6k hi frame rate beast. Which would keep everything separated but make the scarlet an even more solid contender and puts RED in a place where all there cameras have at least a way of giving you most of their options in a 4k or above container.

Gunleik Groven said:
Afraid of dipping my toes in here again, but... if Scarlet got full working 4k including hdrx for PAL/25 land, it would stand well inn all competition, without killing off Epic sales and rentals too much, me thinks.

Now.
Said it.

Now
Duck.
Click to expand...
 
I'm thinking that Obsolesence Obsolete concept as it is implemented at Red needs to be better defined, or it should be re-defined as a marketing campaign. If retrofitting the brain does not work out then the perception of Obsolescence will apparently persist.

Perhaps the retrofit needs to be a higher priority that is not so quickly abandoned. Is it not cost effective because the value of the box itself is too low, or because the cost of labor is so high? It could become less costly by moving that operation overseas.

Tech could trickle down more slowly, landing in Scarlet only after the parts de-value. That would mean moving the Scarlet a full generation behind the Epic. Utilizing binned parts for Scarlet in that scenario doesn't work. Without recovering expenses by utilizing binned parts, the cost of premium parts will go up, driving up the price on Epic Dragon in the short term. I wouldn't expect to see a lot of complaining from Epic users if that happened. Scarlet users might bitch about having to wait, but that is as manageable as it seems inevitable. Things are moving quickly enough that it may be little more than a bump in the road. As Epic moves to Dragon with new ASICs, Scarlet moves up to current Epic components. That could be 9-12 months out... A piece of cake.

Otherwise the emphasis needs to switch from the sensor and brain to the system as a whole.

If the accessory lawsuit is any indication then Red always planned to make THE SYSTEM the thing, but the system has been under promoted and the sensor tech over promoted. Modules like Meizler make the accessories sexy and unique, but at least half of the system (the support half) is not. That may become a problem for the strategy. The proliferation of high value modules needs to continue with added gusto for the strategy to work, me thinks.
 
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i can;t understan...
 
Scott Crawley said:
I'm thinking that Obsolesence Obsolete concept as it is implemented at Red needs to be better defined, or it should be re-defined as a marketing campaign. If retrofitting the brain does not work out then the perception of Obsolescence will apparently persist.

Perhaps the retrofit needs to be a higher priority that is not so quickly abandoned. Is it not cost effective because the value of the box itself is too low, or because the cost of labor is so high? It could become less costly by moving that operation overseas.

Tech could trickle down more slowly, landing in Scarlet only after the parts de-value. That would mean moving the Scarlet a full generation behind the Epic. Utilizing binned parts for Scarlet in that scenario doesn't work. Without recovering expenses by utilizing binned parts, the cost of premium parts will go up, driving up the price on Epic in the short term. I wouldn't expect to see a lot of complaining from Epic users if that happened. Scarlet users might bitch about having to wait, but that is as manageable as it seems inevitable. Things are moving quickly enough that it may be little more than a bump in the road. As Epic moves to Dragon with new ASICs, Scarlet moves up to current Epic components. That could be 9-12 months out... A piece of cake.

Otherwise the emphasis needs to switch from the sensor and brain to the system as a whole.

If the accessory lawsuit is any indication then Red always planned to make THE SYSTEM the thing, but the system has been under promoted and the sensor tech over promoted. Modules like Meizler make the accessories sexy and unique, but at least half of the system (the support half) is not. That may become a problem for the strategy. The proliferation of high value modules needs to continue with added gusto for the strategy to work, me thinks.
Click to expand...


Scott...

Jim has said a number of times since NAB 2008, that "Obsolence Obsolete" means "you only have to swap your brain, not the whole camerasystem"

Despite that, they have offered brain upgrades, but that is more like a bonus than anything I have ever seen promised "in advance"
As to the Scarlet, I have seen no other promises than a "upgrade path to Dragon"
When pushed on the subject, jarred has said something along the lines of:
"We are looking into replacing boards in the brain, but if that is at all doable, it is more complicated and will be more expensive than the Epic upgrade".

Then now, after getting further with the program, the verdict is out:
"A trade in program". Nothing further promised and no prices predicted, other than "trade in", as far as I can see.

I have a hard time seeing RED breaking any promises here.
And Obsolence Obsoleted, is OF COURSE a marketing tool.
But as Jim has been so clear as what he really means by it (that you can swap the brain and keep the rest of your system so you don't have to start from scratch each time you upgrade your camerasensor) AND despite that has decided to offer "upgrade paths with discounts", I cannot really see where all the anger comes from...

Cheers!

G
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Scott...

Jim has said a number of times since NAB 2008, that "Obsolence Obsolete" means "you only have to swap your brain, not the whole camerasystem"

Despite that, they have offered brain upgrades, but that is more like a bonus than anything I have ever seen promised "in advance"
As to the Scarlet, I have seen no other promises than a "upgrade path to Dragon"
When pushed on the subject, jarred has said something along the lines of:
"We are looking into replacing boards in the brain, but if that is at all doable, it is more complicated and will be more expensive than the Epic upgrade".

Then now, after getting further with the program, the verdict is out:
"A trade in program". Nothing further promised and no prices predicted, other than "trade in", as far as I can see.

I have a hard time seeing RED breaking any promises here.
And Obsolence Obsoleted, is OF COURSE a marketing tool.
But as Jim has been so clear as what he really means by it (that you can swap the brain and keep the rest of your system so you don't have to start from scratch each time you upgrade your camerasensor) AND despite that has decided to offer "upgrade paths with discounts", I cannot really see where all the anger comes from...

Cheers!

G
Click to expand...

I know that. My older posts have expressed that. As you just quoted, I am concerned that folks continue to see swapping out the brain as an obsolesence. I am looking forward, taking your recent post into account, as I think you are right.

Gunleik Groven said:
Afraid of dipping my toes in here again, but... if Scarlet got full working 4k including hdrx for PAL/25 land, it would stand well inn all competition, without killing off Epic sales and rentals too much, me thinks.

Now.
Said it.

Now
Duck.
Click to expand...

Do you perceive me as angry? If so, please revisit my posts on this thread or just re-read that last one. I am very content with Scarlet... As happy as a pig in shit, some might say. ;-)
 
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Paul Schneider said:
This would be lovely, but in all likelyhood its not going to happen.
Click to expand...

Paul, as a genuine question.. Why Not?

Arri made use of this system for years in the Super16 days. SR1/2/3 for normal filming and their HS models for high-speed. Hence the doubling of costs..

SK
 
Scott Crawley said:


I know that. My older posts have expressed that. As you just quoted, I am concerned that folks continue to see swapping out the brain as an obsolesence. I am looking forward, taking your recent post into account, as I think you are right.



Do you perceive me as angry? If so, please revisit my posts on this thread or just re-read that last one. I am very content with Scarlet... As happy as a pig in shit, some might say. ;-)
Click to expand...


OK, all good!
Sorry for any misunderstanding and a happy new year!!!
 
Scott Crawley said:
Is it not cost effective because the value of the box itself is too low, or because the cost of labor is so high? It could become less costly by moving that operation overseas.
Click to expand...

Well, I strongly disagree. The fact that RED manufacture their cameras here in the US, is, to me, a strong sales argument -- and I'd gladly pay a bit more to keep it that way.

-- peer
 
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