Scarlet and Dragon...

[Louis Maddalena]

No nobody was told what the price would be to upgrade to Dragon for the Scarlet.

Which is why I'm so confused as to why people are complaining. All we know about red is that we get to upgrade when we buy red products, and even if we didn't, red products are modular so we'd only need to buy a new body. As a Scarlet owner myself I am quite happy for the upgrade path that not only gets be me a better sensor, it gets me a whole better camera in that I'll get an Epic.. higher frame rates and everything. That all being less than an Epic without Dragon would have cost me when I bought my Scarlet anyway since there was the price change.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

Apologies as I've come to the RED party late.... Did you guys get told originally the price to upgrade to Dragon? Epic=$6,000 Scarlet=$10,000?
I ask because the statement about there 'not' being an upgrade path to Dragon is not correct. it's just going to be costlier that you thought. Rather than having a Dragon sensor inside your box that says "Scarlet" on the outside you will have a Dragon sensor inside a different box that says "Epic" on the outside. But it's still what you wanted isn't it?

No we weren't, but we were told it was going to be a bit more expensive then the $6000 Epic upgrade.

Jannard: "You don't have to buy a new camera. This is RED at it's best." (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?83937-Dragon-update&p=1050204&viewfull=1#post1050204)
This is taken a bit out of context, but the words shouldn't mean any less. If the Scarlet upgrade is more then $19K we DO need to buy a new camera, or pay the price of a new one at least.

Jannard said the following (not attacking him, if it looks like it)
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...T-ANNOUNCEMENT&p=855514&viewfull=1#post855514

"How can you offer Scarlet-X at this price when EPIC is so much more?
Data rates and processing power. ASICs that weren't fast enough for EPIC… just became a gold mine for Scarlet.This, and board component reduction, allows us to lower the data rate throughput and significantly reduce our costs over volume."

"Can Scarlet-X be upgraded to the new Dragon sensor when it is released?
Yes. However the upgrade will be more expensive than upgrading an EPIC due to the necessity to change several primary boards. There will still be data rate limitations to Scarlet after the upgrade as compared with EPIC."

I don't know if the last part (There will still be data rate limitations to Scarlet after the upgrade as compared with EPIC) is still true, or even if Red knows, but if it's still the case it would seem like, it doesn't need to be as expensive as buying a new Epic. One would hope. I have no wish for 6K video or 600fps or whatever the framerate will be.

 

[David Patino]

don't get me wrong! i sit on my couch, in my boxers reading all the latest red-porn every night. but until its listed on the website for sale, i just keep repeating this little "slogan" to myself: "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

truly, i hope we all get what we want in 2013 though!

 

[Mike Quill]

I also bought a Scarlet with the understanding that its sensor could be upgraded to Dragon for $6k+. If my only upgrade path to Dragon is to spend $20k+ in one shot, then it's essentially like having to buy a new camera, and could very well be out of reach for me financially.

But, If RED offers Scarlet owners a two stage trade in program in which we can first upgrade to the Epic MX brain for around $10k, and then later down the line upgrade to the Dragon sensor for another $10k or so, then that would be much more reasonable for me. This would be a win win scenario for both RED and their Scarlet customers.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Phil Holland]

I also bought a Scarlet with the understanding that its sensor could be upgraded to Dragon for $6k+.

Just to be clear, Red never stated that Scarlet would be able to upgrade to Dragon for $6k. It was always "TBD". The official word was always "there would be a path to Dragon from Scarlet", which in itself is a strong selling point honestly.

Here's the official announcement graphic from Jim:

OK... it begins.

Jim

Based on what we currently know about Dragon's development and the R&D that is getting us there it sounds like it's going to be a bit more than $6k for Epic owners to get to Dragon. The downside to that is the upgrade path for both Epic and Scarlet will cost more. The upside however is that it sounds like Dragon is going to be more than what we even expected design-wise. Especially if you read the NYE post by Jarred. There are really exciting concepts hinted at in that thread.

Red has many options on what that can do with Dragon for both Epic and Scarlet owners. But, they aren't ready to spill the beans just yet. It's just too early, and these days revealing such info early on is risky business.

Don't expect new technology for nothing, that's not going to happen. Especially when it comes to state of the art image capture devices. But do expect Red to keep you in mind. They have done right for owners in the past with Epic and it sounds like they will do right by owners in the future with Dragon.

Less panic. More patience.

There's more information and features on the way.

What you can do today is go out and make some money to prepare for what's coming.

 

[Josef Gatti]

The only concern on my mind, is that if the brain upgrade is out of my financial range, will the scarlet lose any future upgrades, or if hardware upgrades are to end there.

Here's to hoping for at least 6 months to get the wallet in order. If epic dragon is within my price range by then, I think I'll cry.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

For awhile now, some folks have believed - based only on assumptions, which magically turned into "common knowledge" - that a Scarlet to Dragon upgrade would be just a little more expensive than the $6K Epic to Dragon upgrade. If one was listening carefully, one would never have made an assumption that there would end up being two Dragons. There was never any announcement, comment or even hint that there would be an Epic Dragon and a Scarlet Dragon. The only things promised was 1) that there would be a Dragon and 2) that both Scarlet owners and Epic owners would be able to upgrade to it.

As a Scarlet owner, I have always been keenly interested in how I could upgrade my camera and, to me, the only path that was clearly stated was to go all the way to, the one and only, Dragon. Why would anyone assume that such an upgrade would cost less than whatever the two stages - first from Scarlet to Epic, then from Epic to Dragon (at $6K, now estimated to be higher) would cost when added together?

Some folks (correctly) estimated the Scarlet upgrade path to be around $10-12K for Scarlet to Epic PLUS the (previously) $6K for the Epic to Dragon upgrade. Total of around $16-18K (now probably higher) Why would anyone assume anything less? If, as a Scarlet owner, or new buyer hoping to upgrade, you were planning on less, where did you get such an idea?

As for complaining about the trade-in instead of a direct Scarlet upgrade, what's the problem? As I pointed out above, the path for Scarlet to Dragon was always likely to be through Epic so what is so upsetting about turning in your Scarlet to get Epic or Dragon? The cost isn't any greater.

Seems that the problem very much arises from the "noise machine" here on R/U. In the end, the only "facts" about RED that are delivered here are delivered by RED personnel. All else is conjecture and should be treated as such. (EDIT: Oh, and THAT information is always subject to change.)

 

[Josh Snyder]

Hindsight is something isn't it? It is all too easy to look back and develop a conspiracy theory. A broader view is in order I think. Red spent an enormous amount of time and money to develop the early Scarlet prototype. Do you really suppose that program was bogus or a deliberately fake plot point in a larger script? Do you suppose the hard feelings that were produced instead of a camera was what Red wanted to get for their time and money?

I think they tried their best to fulfill the desires of an under served market and simply couldn't make it work within the larger context of their business.

No you understood wrong what I said. They tried to make 2/3 Scarlet work as long as possible, but when they realized they couldn't do it (at least without wasting a lot more time) and as they had promised to release lower priced Scarlet, "crippled" EPIC was the only thing that made sense. The second 2/3 Scarlet was gone from the table, this path Scarlet has taken to Dragon through MX sensor was the only way to go without trying to develope second sensor again.

We don't know what else is there with Jarred's love for BMC and it might be that RED will try again to come up with something to compete under 5k$ market against BMC and others. There are now good sensors out there that you can get for pretty cheap. For example this sensor from CMOSIS that Axiom will be using looks interesting: http://www.cmosis.com/products/standard_products/cmv12000

It's 4K, S35, Global Shutter, 175fps full sensor (8bit), 150fps full sensor (10bit), 90fps full sensor 12bit, up to 15 stop DR and so on. More cheap sensors like that will be coming this year that's for sure.

 

[Fernando Tufiño]

Ok, i was planning to give my two cents about the recent Red Scarlet (not-Dragon-anymore) announcement. I waited a few days because I wanted to really think through before writing, what this meant for me and my investment.
As much as I am grateful with my Scarlet, and just the idea of owning an Epic Dragon is very exciting, the truth of the matter is that I only had a budget for a Red Scarlet, now I got it, and one of the best reasons why I got it is because of the upgrade path.
Some people say: well, you are supposed to make money with the camera! Well, yeah, but not all of that money is for buying new cameras.. new sensors as promised, maybe.
The thing is, people who can afford to go over to Epic or even Epic Dragon, are going to be thrilled. People who can´t, don´t really care that you can trade in their Scarlets with the current prices that are being talked about. You just have to look at what an Scarlet and Epic brain costs and figure out where the lower bar won´t be.
Does that make my Scarlet investment a bad decision? Or course not. For me there is no value to what I am learning owning my cinema camera without being left on the street full of debts, like i would with other cameras out there. I´ll take that knowledge with me even to any other new model coming from now on. That´s all thanks to RED.

What I don´t like is the company itself building this excitement without previously thinking of the way it can affect people´s hard earned money. As cool as it is getting first hand news from the same people that make these dream-like machines come true, I think this attitude should be revised.
This is my opinion from someone who is just starting in the business. I know years from now I´ll own my Epic Dragon eventually or whatever the equivalent is and I´ll be very happy with my decision, but I´ll also sympathize with any rocky situation a newcomer is having, even over a company I love.

That being said, I will like to congratulate the whole Red Team. You are true visionaries and you are making History, not just cinematic history. You are making us care more and more about how you do your job, not just what you sell to us. This is truly Epic.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

No you understood wrong what I said. They tried to make 2/3 Scarlet work as long as possible, but when they realized they couldn't do it (at least without wasting a lot more time) and as they had promised to release lower priced Scarlet, "crippled" EPIC was the only thing that made sense. The second 2/3 Scarlet was gone from the table, this path Scarlet has taken to Dragon through MX sensor was the only way to go without trying to develope second sensor again.

We don't know what else is there with Jarred's love for BMC and it might be that RED will try again to come up with something to compete under 5k$ market against BMC and others. There are now good sensors out there that you can get for pretty cheap. For ecample this sensor from CMOSIS that Axiom will be using looks interesting: http://www.cmosis.com/products/standard_products/cmv12000

It's 4K, S35, Global Shutter, 150fps full sensor, "up to" 15 stop DR and so on. More cheap sensors like that will be coming this year that's for sure.

What you describe as "crippled Epic", does in all fairness fit quite well with the NAB announced Scarlet S35...

And as my speculation is as poor as yours... My bet is that the unifying "policy" of RED, that anything below 4k is "sub par", was as much a reason to skip the 2/3 as anything else... They'd be competing in a market they publicly denounce.
Production-wise it does seem to make a lot more sense to have 2 versions of what is basically the same product, than stocking parts and productionline for two different lines of production.

Removing paradoxes is good.

 

[Josh Snyder]

Gunleik, they started to develope 2/3 Scarlet long time after they came to the camera scene and said only 4K is good enough. There was huge crowd who wanted 2/3 Scarlet and they tried years to make it happen. They said it was not possible to do it because of some problems and that's why the project was demised. Lot of developing time wasted and a lot of money lost since most people who waited years for that camera went and bought something else.

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

We don't know what else is there with Jarred's love for BMC and it might be that RED will try again to come up with something to compete under 5k$ market against BMC and others.

I don't see that happening. Jim Jannard was pretty clear when he declared, a couple of years ago, that Red would produce only professional (read: not price-sensitive) cameras.

There are now good sensors out there that you can get for pretty cheap. For example this sensor from CMOSIS that Axiom will be using looks interesting: http://www.cmosis.com/products/standard_products/cmv12000

It's 4K, S35, Global Shutter, 175fps full sensor (8bit), 150fps full sensor (10bit), 90fps full sensor 12bit, up to 15 stop DR and so on. More cheap sensors like that will be coming this year that's for sure.

Although cheap by Dragon standards, the CMV12000 costs something like $1,000 to $1,500 per unit. And its frame-rate specs have been halved since it was first announced two years ago. I used to think that, like the Arri Alexa sensor, it accomplished HDR through dual (high- and no-gain) readout, but that's not the case -- of the three HDR modes, none is dual readout. From what I've read, HDR is plagued by unpleasant artifacts. Sadly, the native DR is only about 10 stops.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Well, Josh...

I'll give you that... I wanted the 2/3 as much as the next man, as a b-cam...

Looking around in the current cameramarket, though, the name of the game seems to be S35 and 4k.
There are of course others, like BMC, digital Bolex, SI etc.
But to be honest, in the environments I see, they don't have much traction.

It was probably a hard business choice, but doesn't seem overall a bad one...

I could've used a 2/3 and I think the BMCC is a very interesting project. Which has still yet to really deliver (alongside a few others)

What I think I see, is that even with sensors readilly available at low pricepoints, creating camerasystems is still a bumpy road...

 

[Bérenger Brillante]

For Epic, If I recall it was always upgradable brain, not sensor.
Now that it does mean upgradable brain (which is better), people complain.

For Scarlet, it was TBD.

I love Red, when I bought my Red one in 2008, I had no idea I was about to have an Epic now.
When I bought my Scarlet, I didn't though I could switch it to Epic in the years to come.

I still bought them. And I will upgrade them.

Red Camera are what's best for the price. Actually they are what's best, period.

 

[Josh Snyder]

Well, Josh...

I'll give you that... I wanted the 2/3 as much as the next man, as a b-cam...

Looking around in the current cameramarket, though, the name of the game seems to be S35 and 4k.
There are of course others, like BMC, digital Bolex, SI etc.
But to be honest, in the environments I see, they don't have much traction.

It was probably a hard business choice, but doesn't seem overall a bad one...

I could've used a 2/3 and I think the BMCC is a very interesting project. Which has still yet to really deliver (alongside a few others)

What I think I see, is that even with sensors readilly available at low pricepoints, creating camerasystems is still a bumpy road...

I for one can't wait for NAB to see what's coming this year

Everyone has problems producing cameras. It's only RED and Blackmagic (from the most known manufacturers) that I can think out of my head that are giving this information publicly. But then again these are pretty much the only manufacturers that gives any information at all before the cameras are actually ready for mass production. Guys like Sony and Canon have different strategy and everyone has their opinion which they prefer. I do prefer the RED's and BMD's way since it will speed up the competition. RED: "We are coming with this", Sony "Shit, we have to abandon this idea and release camera with better specs" or Canon "Damn, must release the camera with lower price that we were planning. Can't make big price drop 6 months after the release when RED's new camera is released" and so on. Even more plans have changed under the curtain after the announcement of BMC. More open developement is better for customers in my opinion even though it leads to frustrating times, some times.

 

[Jason Rudd]

At around $30K, the EPIC Dragon, like any camera in that price range, no longer becomes a personal camera. You would have to ask yourself these two questions:

1) Can I recoup $30K with value added kit fees and rentals within 12 to 18 months?

2) Do I have enough productions that want to use that specific camera (EPIC Dragon) so that I can recoup the $30K?

The answer for me would be a resounding NO. Even high end productions often decide NOT to shoot with an Epic, even for a very low rate. Why? a) Then can get another camera (Alexa, Sony F35, etc.) for a very low rate or for free. b) Some directors/producers are Anti-RED so they would prefer to use another camera. c) Many of the low budgets can't afford the added rate you would be asking for - unless it's for a pittance. d) At a certain level of professionalism, the cameras are almost always RENTED from the commercial rental houses.

So an upgrade to an EPIC Dragon by current Scarlet owners forces them to rent out the body in most cases to recoup the costs. And do you really want to be in the rental business?

My point is that current Scarlet owners who wish to trade in are faced with a slew of business, personal and professional questions when it comes to ownership of something much more costly. Renting is always the safer bet.

 

[Philipe Ratton]

Well, I recoup the cost of my Scarlet in 3 months.
Unleash DRAGON asap!!!

 

[Mike Quill]

Just to be clear, Red never stated that Scarlet would be able to upgrade to Dragon for $6k. It was always "TBD". The official word was always "there would be a path to Dragon from Scarlet", which in itself is a strong selling point honestly.]

Hey Phil,

Yeah by "$6k+" I meant a price more than $6k but somewhere in the ball park, say $9-10k...but $20k would be significantly higher. What sort of upgrade options would you like to see from RED?

Mike

 

[Simon Knight]

And don't forget us little guys that have no intention of upgrading! Sounds stupid but as I said elsewhere, I'm still delivering on DVD and offering BluRay as an added option. So HD is still my market. Therefore shooting in 4K is going to be fine for me for the next 18 months or so - plenty of time to recoup the money for the Scarlet.

All I ask of RED is that they continue to develop the Scarlet and perhaps just let a little of the Dragon-magic trickle down to the baby of the family... My biggest wish would be 24/25fps at 4K - tiny compared to the power of Dragon now, isn't it!

SK

 

[Phil Holland]

What sort of upgrade options would you like to see from RED?

Personally I would like to see "an upgrade option" because nobody else provides that. Which is one of the reasons I'm a Red owner and shooter.

While I can express my opinion about what I'd like to see on price, capabilities, or even some other version of Dragon for Scarlet I find it's better to see what Red is going to do. There are so many possibilities that haven't even been discussed. For that reason I'll remain patient.

For now I need to continue to work hard and make smart decisions to raise capital for the upgrade in whatever way I can. If it's outside of my reach when the time comes for some reason I'll be forced to make harder decisions. For now it's business as usual.

Dragon is new technology and there's been a good chunk of change invested in R&D by Red. Not just for the sensor itself. New boards, new processing, new "other" things that we also hinted at. What we know today is that Dragon out specs pretty much anything available today and probably the next 2.5 years of competing bodies when it comes to resolution and dynamic range. I think there's going to be more to it than that based on what I've read here. Me personally, I'm hungry for that. I'll do what I can to make that happen.