Scarlet 4 and 5K RAW stills depth

[PC Greene]

Please forgive if this has been answered, but what is the native DPI of RAW files shot on Scarlet at 4 or 5K?

We know the resolution size in pixels, but I can't find information on the DPI resolution...240? 300? More?

Thank you!

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

Isn't a Pixel a Dot? Video is measured in Pixels, because you could be viewing it on a variety of screen sizes. Print is measured in dots per inch because you are actually physically printing a set amount of dots every inch. You can take a video image into photoshop and adjust it to be whatever DPI you want.

Take the horizontal (or vertical) resolution of Scarlet 5K. Divide by 300. That's your printable inches at 300 DPI.

 

[PC Greene]

While this could be the case, looking at EXIF data for a high rez jpeg shot on our 5DmkII it is some 4000 x 2500 pixels at 240 DPI - 3-4 times the depth of screen resolution (72dpi).

I am interested in knowing for certain the maximum debayered size and depth of RAW stills shot at 4 or 5K...I thought I'd post this in Scarlet thread, but perhaps it should be in Photo thread?

Thank you!

 

[Yoav Yerushalmi]

While this could be the case, looking at EXIF data for a high rez jpeg shot on our 5DmkII it is some 4000 x 2500 pixels at 240 DPI - 3-4 times the depth of screen resolution (72dpi).

EXIF data's 'dpi' value is a random bogus number. Similarly, your monitors claim of being 72dpi is most likely wrong. Every camera manufacturer picks a different number to put in there. It is ignored. I think you could be asking how many pixels per inch the sensor has, or how many pixels per inch your display has. To answer the part that CAN be answered:
a 5K image is 5120 x 2700. This is on a sensor that is 30mm x 15 mm. So 5120 pixels in 30mm = 170 pixels per mm = 1,700 pixels per cm = 4318 pixels per inch.
So the epic sensor in theory has about 4300 ppi.

Your display's 'ppi' can be computed by taking the horizontal resolution (say 1920) and dividing by the width.

the 'maximum' debayered size and depth of a RAW still is 5120 x 2700 pixels at 16 bits. But the 'effective resolution' is usually quoted at around 75% of that.

Hopefully I understood the question and the answer made sense..?

 

[Koray Birand]

If you get a still grap and printed in a magazine (300 Dpi) the you get the size of 43.35 cm x 22.86 cm (17 x 9 inches). As Nick mentioned, you can easily access these numbers via photoshop.

 

[J Davis]

DPI is metadata attached to a gird of pixels. A 300 dpi photoshop file is a grid of pixels with meta data that says 300 of them equals one inch.

A video file does not have this metadata, if a you bring a frame into photoshop you can make it whatever you want.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

The answers you have received are unsatisfactory because your question is meaningless.

DPI is a implementation specific term applied to the display of images. When you display the image, the DPI you select is the DPI.

I can take the same RAW 7D file and print it at full resolution on a billboard at 50dpi, or in a slick magazine at 1693dpi. 8.64 feet wide on the billboard versus 3 inches wide in the magazine.

When you put the image up on a particular screen, that screen has a DPI. I have a 24" Gateway and a 23" Apple Cinema Display. They both have the same pixel resolution, 1920x1200, but they have different DPI. (I measured it once ... but now I don't have the numbers handy.)

The answer to your question is essentially, "What DPI do you wish to use?"

Only raw resolution matters at acquisition.

What is the effective resolution of a 5K RAW image once debayered?

Well, that is a tricky question, but unless you are a scientist or a forensic image analyst, its also ultimately a meaningless one.

You just want your images to be good enough for the client to use, right?

Well, have a look at the "Photography" section of the "Shot on Red" sub site.

http://www.red.com/experience/photography

Many of these were shot on Red One at 4K, although Epic is gaining steady ground with 5K and faster frame rates.

In this context what you need to know is that the quality of Scarlet images is equivalent to Epic (16 bit RAW R3D files), but it can't offer the same combinations of resolution and frame rates that Epic offers.

There is your practical answer.

If your client requires more than 12fps at 5K, or 4K at 24fps, then they need to spend money on an Epic.

The question I'd ask is if your clients are satisfied with 2 second bursts of 8fps 5K 12 bit RAW today (like the Canon 7D), then why won't they be satisfied with 12fps continuous 5K 16bit RAW?

(If you shoot a 5DMK2 then that becomes 4fps bursts of 5.5k 12 bit RAW)

Its a big upgrade.

Finally ... despite all this cool stuff, I question the value of Scarlet to low end users who mostly need good photographic capability. The upcoming EOS 1D X seems much nicer and more economical for the type of shooting most photographers need to do professionally. It can burst 12fps of RAW 5K

The Red DSMC system is exceedingly capable, but its not a camera system I want to walk around with all day like you might with a 7D or 5D. In fact I've been a bit old school recently and had a quicky job where I had a 5D and a 7D. I kept a 24-70 on the 5D, and a 70-200 on the 7D all night and walked around getting my shots. I think together they weighed less than an Epic rig with the Canon 70-200 mounted. Even if I owned an Epic or Scarlet ... I would have left them at home for this job. (I own a 7D and had to rent the 5D, and the lenses.)

Anyway, my point is that, for the most part, Red's cameras belong in studio style photography as opposed to field/location photography. (I said photography ... they obviously go anywhere as motion picture cameras!)

 

[Koray Birand]

The answers you have received are unsatisfactory because your question is meaningless.

DPI is a implementation specific term applied to the display of images. When you display the image, the DPI you select is the DPI.

I can take the same RAW 7D file and print it at full resolution on a billboard at 50dpi, or in a slick magazine at 1693dpi. 8.64 feet wide on the billboard versus 3 inches wide in the magazine.

When you put the image up on a particular screen, that screen has a DPI. I have a 24" Gateway and a 23" Apple Cinema Display. They both have the same pixel resolution, 1920x1200, but they have different DPI. (I measured it once ... but now I don't have the numbers handy.)

The answer to your question is essentially, "What DPI do you wish to use?"

Only raw resolution matters at acquisition.

What is the effective resolution of a 5K RAW image once debayered?

Well, that is a tricky question, but unless you are a scientist or a forensic image analyst, its also ultimately a meaningless one.

You just want your images to be good enough for the client to use, right?

Well, have a look at the "Photography" section of the "Shot on Red" sub site.

http://www.red.com/experience/photography

Many of these were shot on Red One at 4K, although Epic is gaining steady ground with 5K and faster frame rates.

In this context what you need to know is that the quality of Scarlet images is equivalent to Epic (16 bit RAW R3D files), but it can't offer the same combinations of resolution and frame rates that Epic offers.

There is your practical answer.

If your client requires more than 12fps at 5K, or 4K at 24fps, then they need to spend money on an Epic.

The question I'd ask is if your clients are satisfied with 2 second bursts of 8fps 5K 12 bit RAW today (like the Canon 7D), then why won't they be satisfied with 12fps continuous 5K 16bit RAW?

(If you shoot a 5DMK2 then that becomes 4fps bursts of 5.5k 12 bit RAW)

Its a big upgrade.

Finally ... despite all this cool stuff, I question the value of Scarlet to low end users who mostly need good photographic capability. The upcoming EOS 1D X seems much nicer and more economical for the type of shooting most photographers need to do professionally. It can burst 12fps of RAW 5K

The Red DSMC system is exceedingly capable, but its not a camera system I want to walk around with all day like you might with a 7D or 5D. In fact I've been a bit old school recently and had a quicky job where I had a 5D and a 7D. I kept a 24-70 on the 5D, and a 70-200 on the 7D all night and walked around getting my shots. I think together they weighed less than an Epic rig with the Canon 70-200 mounted. Even if I owned an Epic or Scarlet ... I would have left them at home for this job. (I own a 7D and had to rent the 5D, and the lenses.)

Anyway, my point is that, for the most part, Red's cameras belong in studio style photography as opposed to field/location photography. (I said photography ... they obviously go anywhere as motion picture cameras!)

Alexander, why should a client require you to shoot at 4fps, 12 fps, 24fps or whatever fps. Fps has nothing to do with photography as far as I know unless you are not a sports photographer. To be honest, I consider myself an experienced
photographer and epic or scarlet is quite enough for editorial work (even for mega boards but because of these 40 to 80 Mp cameras clients are more demanding for no reason). I did a lot of campaign stuff with Nikon d100 which was 6Mp.

Anyway my intention is not to debate instead to understand this fps issue with photography...

Thanks,

 

[Philipe Ratton]

I Think he just wants to know how big can he effectively print the stills, right ?

 

[Phil Holland]

The basic answer to this question is off of a full 5k capture, 5120x2700, you'll be looking at a possible print of 17x9 inches at 300dpi.
At 4k, 4096x2160, 13.7x7.2 inches at 300dpi.

Certainly enough for magazine print work, however, fairly odd native image dimensions for publications. I've had image published with less resolution on full page spreads though. Much will depend on your post processing techniques.

It's usefully a good idea to post process your exported R3D stills and apply a little sharpening to them to add a bit of punch via Photoshop or even Adobe Camera Raw (which is what I do). You can also do this straight through RCP.

 

[J Davis]

nice answer phil !

 

[John Byrne]

Phil's right. I own and publish my own magazines and am always concerned with resolution. Mine are printed at 200-250lpi (lines per inch) and the rule of thumb is 2x that for DPI. So, my files should optimally be 400-500dpi. But, I never use that resolution because it isn't yielding a perceptible improvement, while it does choke my printing company's server. If resolution is in the 'ballpark', meaning you are close to 11x17 @ 300 dpi, you have a file that will meet 99% of the press specs out there. I can't speak for the art directors at Vogue, who I now use Red shooters, but I have been in print since 1980 and have worked in NYC for some of the biggest cos, so I think I'm safe in my basic assumptions.

Now, one last thought: I have shot 4x5 and 8x10 chromes on Velvia 50, drum scanned this at ultra-hi dpis yielding 1.5 gig per image files. Then resampled those down to run through an imaging department (CTP - computer to plate), and got noticeable improvements. But the cost was huge. NOt worth it 90% of the time.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Alexander, why should a client require you to shoot at 4fps, 12 fps, 24fps or whatever fps. Fps has nothing to do with photography as far as I know unless you are not a sports photographer. To be honest, I consider myself an experienced
photographer and epic or scarlet is quite enough for editorial work (even for mega boards but because of these 40 to 80 Mp cameras clients are more demanding for no reason). I did a lot of campaign stuff with Nikon d100 which was 6Mp.

Anyway my intention is not to debate instead to understand this fps issue with photography...

Thanks,

Most clients know they want an image, but they don't talk about specs and such. They describe the results, Its your job to figure out the specs that can deliver the result.

So when the client wants you to, "get a shot where it starts off all slow then gets fast then stops" its your job to figure out you need a camera that can shoot high frame rates.

Bringing it back to stills, your client may want to get a shot of a motocross jumper at a key moment and print it on a billboard. Your job is to figure out the camera that can enable that. I'd want a high resolution camera that shot lots of frames per second ... but hey, maybe you think a daguerreotype is the way to go.

Oh, wait not sports right? How about a particular shot of a fashion model turning on the runway. Again the client will never actually say, oh and make sure your camera shoots high frame rate ... but you know that's what they want. (or not)

Specifications matter in all types of photography, because all cameras are limited in some way. That 40Mp Hasselblad is great ... but there is a solid chance it will miss the exact moment the client wants. That 6Mp Nikon may catch the moment, and lack the resolution to fill the clients needs. Maybe a 1Dmk4 will best suit the job?

Does it make more sense now? I wasn't talking about all those specifications because its a conversation I ever have with clients ... but because its a conversation I'm having with a fellow photographer.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Please forgive if this has been answered, but what is the native DPI of RAW files shot on Scarlet at 4 or 5K?

We know the resolution size in pixels, but I can't find information on the DPI resolution...240? 300? More?

Thank you!

DPI or PPI is related to properties of the media displaying the image, either print or electronic.

RAW imagery you are referring to, coming from a digital motion imaging camera is defined and quantified through:
a) spacial resolution (number of pixels in a frame);
b) temporal resolution (number of frames in a second);
c) colour depth (bits per pixel, digitally quantifying number of available colour gradations)

 

[Lee Saxon]

DPI isn't an aspect of an image, or of image quality. It's not a real thing. It's a piece of metadata that tells a printer what size to print your image. Changing it has absolutely no effect on image data, so whatever DPI setting Red randomly decides to have their files be by default (as someone mentioned, for Canon it's 240) is meaningless. Change it to 15 or 600, whatever you need.