Scarlet 2/3 Fixed at CES: What will be the "Competition's" Response?

[Chris Davis]

Thanks RED for bringing us the Scarlet 2/3" Fixed!

As an enthusiast, I've been watching it's development for 2 1/2 years, and almost nothing has happened during this time in the sub $10K market.

Maybe the other manufactures knew they didn't have to do much before the release of the RED Scarlet 2/3"!

This will be a total revolution for the under $10K market (for under $5-6K?).

You've given us REDCODE RAW when the others gave us garbage.

You've given us the option of non-proprietary flash media when the others charged us as much as they could.

One might hope the little RED Scarlet 2/3 Fixed could outperform every camera currently available under $15K.

What do the people here think the other manufactures will do to try to catch up?

 

[Charles Angus]

Well, in the spirit of friendly competition - hopefully Sony and Panasonic (and Canon and Nikon) raise the bar themselves.

*Chokes laughing*

Never going to happen.

 

[Shane Betts]

So far the other manufacturers seem determined to do what they've always done and give us what they think we should have. And it's not enough. Not by a long way.

You know, I love Arri, I love Canon, I used to work for Panasonic (OK, I'm not a big Sony fan) but, honestly, they don't seem to want to get it. I think it's going to be a while before anyone follows Red.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Thanks RED for bringing us the Scarlet 2/3" Fixed!

As an enthusiast, I've been watching it's development for 2 1/2 years, and almost nothing has happened during this time in the sub $10K market.
...

What do the people here think the other manufactures will do to try to catch up?

Well, I wouldn't call a plethora of full and APS-C frame vDSLRs, Canon's X's, and the m4/3 AF100 "almost nothing."

:closed2ur0:

Anyway, I don't see how this doesn't become another "other cameras thread" that should be locked. JMHO.

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

One might hope the little RED Scarlet 2/3 Fixed could outperform every camera currently available under $15K.

I'd say under $20K

What do the people here think the other manufactures will do to try to catch up?

Nothing, they just can't; what you can do with the automated lilne produicing Fiat Uno to start making Ferrari?
They oriented to a very different market segment.

 

[David Rasberry]

How about under the price of an F800 Sony? $50k?
I think Scarlet is very likely to outperform virtually every 2/3" HD camera on the planet. Superior resolution, superior dynamic range, superior range of frame rates, at least equal sensitivity.

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Scarlet is win-win.

And other companies won't move a muscle specially since the general public mind way more about sensor size than other important IQ factors like DR, color depth and a better compression scheme.

 

[Saied_M]

I may be wrong, but I thought I read that RED cancelled the original Scarlet design after seeing Canon release the 5DMk2. If that's true, Canon might now be waiting to learn the same lessons for a possible 5DMk3. Having said that, the others seem to release features almost grudgingly - it seems the choice for them is to either stand still or tip over their own applecart and cry. They might even lack the ability to follow.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Well, in the spirit of friendly competition - hopefully Sony and Panasonic (and Canon and Nikon) raise the bar themselves.

*Chokes laughing*

Never going to happen.

There is no reading in the market yet of Scarlet's impact. Until there is, the other players have no data from which to plot the course ahead. There are still too many people- many of them on this very forum- who claim to want more from the competition, yet they are often first in line to buy the latest offerings. This could be due to Scarlet's unavailability or simple Pavlovian conditioning.

But even in the face of Red's stunning capture of the professional space, the "competition" still appear to be blind to the parameters that they should be developing toward. They're still fixed on interchangeable lenses. IMO, this is like sticking performance tires on the same old Ford Pinto. They must innovate. What good is the latest camera when all it does is give you the same old underwhelming and stasis-perpetuating resolution and color depth?

 

[David Rasberry]

I may be wrong, but I thought I read that RED cancelled the original Scarlet design after seeing Canon release the 5DMk2. If that's true, Canon might now be waiting to learn the same lessons for a possible 5DMk3. Having said that, the others seem to release features almost grudgingly - it seems the choice for them is to either stand still or tip over their own applecart and cry. They might even lack the ability to follow.

The S-35 Scarlet moved to the Epic platform for the HDRx™ upgrade, but the 2/3" Scarlets are still in the mix. They have not been canceled. Different market, DSLR's are not relevant.

 

[Eric Rodemann]

They're still fixed on interchangeable lenses. IMO, this is like sticking performance tires on the same old Ford Pinto. They must innovate. What good is the latest camera when all it does is give you the same old underwhelming and stasis-perpetuating resolution and color depth?

IMO, the ability to change lenses is like the ability to change tires depending on road conditions. You'll get better performance with the correct tires for snow, blistering heat, off road, etc., and you wont' find one set of tires that works just as well for each specific condition as a set made to meet that particular challenge.

If you're shooting a narrative part of your artistic vision can be realized with the glass you use for your shot. If you're shooting nature shots or sports for example, or run and gun documentaries, you may not have time to change lenses.

But an f1.2 for low light conditions (meaning less lighting set ups in cramped spaces), or a prime for a close up is going to give you a different feel and look than a slower lens or a tele. And different brands can also give you different subtle looks, some more tack sharp, some more organic and so forth, different kinds of bokeh, all nice tools to have in your tool box to create a particular feel for your project.

I wouldn't discount the ability to use different lenses if you're shooting a narrative. Again, for nature, sports, docs, it's probably not that important. I'd like the ability to use different lenses. It's important to me, may not be to others depending on their subject matter.

For a narrative I want a minimum of 2K, with as little moire, aliasing, and skew as possible, and great (subjective) IQ, under 10K without lenses.

Yea, that's a hell of a lot to ask for, but I'll take it from any manufacturer that can give it to me. It doesn't exist now, but we're obviously headed in that direction.

 

[Steve Das]

Jeff Coatney
They're still fixed on interchangeable lenses. IMO, this is like sticking performance tires on the same old Ford Pinto. They must innovate. What good is the latest camera when all it does is give you the same old underwhelming and stasis-perpetuating resolution and color depth?

IMO, the ability to change lenses is like the ability to change tires depending on road conditions. You'll get better performance with the correct tires for snow, blistering heat, off road, etc., and you wont' find one set of tires that works just as well for each specific condition as a set made to meet that particular challenge.

Think he mean that Sony and Panasonic have just come out with their
same old technology sensor wise and just added interchangeable lenses
to their cameras as a solution.

If you are a renter..you can tailor your lens to each project. But an
owner operator you're stuck with one set. But this is not a problem
because digital color correction provides so much latitude in getting
warm/cool color corrections and even diffused looks.

 

[Michael Olsen]

In terms of cinema production, I expect we'll see the same things we've seen in the last few months from the major players: incremental product upgrades for the "prosumer" and "low-end professional" cameras.

We'll see companies jump to larger chips for their flagship cameras while skipping the incremental bits and pieces - m4/3 for Panasonic, ~S35 for Sony, and either APS-C or FF35 for Canon.

Onboard codecs will, at this price range, remain fairly similar to what is out now. 8-bit 4:2:0 or 4:2:2. Cameras will focus on HD-SDI output and offer better capabilities there.

We'll also see companies introduce interchangeable lenses, and probably also go with more modular body concepts (removable handles, modular EVFs, etc.).

I think the general model of production and design there will remain the same, except the speed will accelerate. I don't see any of the major players basically dropping everything and focusing on one specific camera explicitly designed to compete with RED's offerings on every level. But they will get there, piece by piece, quarter by quarter.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Lenses, tires... Sure, you can install the most appropriate one for the job at hand. But in the case of tires, if you need to go mud-bogging, the paddle tires may not be enough for that Ford Pinto to pull itself through to the other side.

Sure, the competition now has interchangeable lens options for their lower-end prosumer camcorders. That's great... I guess... So now I can put a $12K Master Prime or Cooke 5/i on the camera -- wooohooo! That fact that these cameras still can't resolve more than 800 lines on a chart and they only record 18-24Mbps AVC-Intra at 8bit 4:2:0 shouldn't matter, right?

Ah well... Who needs more than 800 lines of resolving power anyway. We're just finishing to 1080p and 800 lines is on par with most 2/3" broadcast cameras and better than the approximate 750 lines measurable from a 2Kx1080 DCP to distribution print. All good enough. ...I hear iPad 2 will be 1440x1080... Hey! Still good enough!!!!
:sarcasm:

"good enough" is what makes YouTube work so well.

 

[David Rasberry]

Even YouTube has an experimental 4k mode online.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

The S-35 Scarlet moved to the Epic platform for the HDRx™™ upgrade, but the 2/3" Scarlets are still in the mix. They have not been canceled. Different market, DSLR's are not relevant.

I've been reading a lot about a concept called 'DSMC'. This is a sub-forum of a forum entitled 'DSMC'.

Since this is the direction RED have stated they are heading in, I think DSLRs are supremely relevant.

There are a lot of hardcore cinema and EFP types in these forums; with the DSMC concept you will start to see a lot more guys like me, who shoot more stills than movies, seeing what a RED DSMC can do for them.

Mike

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

I may be wrong, but I thought I read that RED cancelled the original Scarlet design after seeing Canon release the 5DMk2.

I'm new here, and I may be equally wrong, but I thought I read that RED put Scarlet on hold and redesigned it in response to feedback from potential customers as to what features they wanted and what they would be prepared to pay for them.

Mike

 

[Peter Moretti]

Mike you should do a search on "Scarlet." There's a lot of info available on it.

 

[Michael Olsen]

I'm new here, and I may be equally wrong, but I thought I read that RED put Scarlet on hold and redesigned it in response to feedback from potential customers as to what features they wanted and what they would be prepared to pay for them.

Mike

I think you are right about the timeline. The "3K for $3K Scarlet" was announced. Then the 5D came out. Then RED introduced the Scarlet as we know it now - interchangeable and fixed lens versions, as well as S35.

Now, whether or not the 5D came out causing RED to collectively decide their 3K for $3K camera wasn't enough...that's guesswork.

And whether or not they decided to change it purely because of feedback...that's guesswork, too.

Fact of the matter is, it doesn't really matter. Scarlet is what it is right now. As is Epic. I don't suspect we'll be seeing any major changes and, frankly, I'm happy with the direction they've taken.

There remain to be some questions answered regarding the Scarlet (now basically the 2/3") model and how the stills it can produce will stack up next to say, an APS-C or FF35 camera. And I don't suspect those questions will be answered until many people get their hands on the camera and see what they can push it to do.

 

[David Rasberry]

Red actually moves very fast when they make changes. As of mid December Jim announced that all of the MX series cameras had been released for production. Setting up production lines and dealing with the logistics involved will no doubt take some months, but nothing is on hold.
When I said DSLR's aren't relevant, I meant that people primarily interested in larger sensor 35mm systems are typically not the same as those primarily interested in a 16mm sized image format. 2/3" format has its own distinct market.