Scarlet 2.0

[Josh Snyder]

Why not just use the current sensor and update the specs to be the same as they are in current EPIC-X? Give the Dragon update just for EPIC. I'm sure Scarlet users would be very happy with "just" 5K for many years to come. I know I would. I would much rather shoot 5K with full sensor than 5K with cropped Dragon sensor, since 6K would be overkill for me and just a waste of data and waste of time in post. This way you would destroy the sub 10k$ market and have the 6K king for 25k$+ market.

I know ISO performance is one thing why people want Dragon (not to mention jump in dynamic range), but would you rather have the current EPIC specs than crippled Dragon with lower frame rates?

 

[Stephen Franchek]

I'll take the lower frame rate and better sensor

 

[Josh Snyder]

I'll take the lower frame rate and better sensor

Better and cropped obviously if you don't shoot with high frame rates then you would want the Dragon for better ISO, DR etc.

 

[Pete Lutz]

It's funny to me that there is this common belief that the Scarlet can do everything the Epic can with a simple firmware upgrade that Red is keeping from us. I don't think it's that easy.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

It's funny to me that there is this common belief that the Scarlet can do everything the Epic can with a simple firmware upgrade that Red is keeping from us. I don't think it's that easy.

I think this is the result of the delusional speculation that goes on in these threads by people who put forth their wacky ideas as "fact." (When they actually haven't a clue.) Then, others pick up on those "facts" and amplify them. The whole thing is like a silly game of telephone and what started out as some one person's wacky theory becomes a "known fact that we can all agree on."

Geesh.

 

[Josh Snyder]

It's funny to me that there is this common belief that the Scarlet can do everything the Epic can with a simple firmware upgrade that Red is keeping from us. I don't think it's that easy.

I meant that they should just put what ever is inside the EPIC-X casing into Scarlet casing. Keep the EPIC-X product line going and just change the casing.

 

[Doug Beatty]

I'm not siding with the gripers on this one, but the math bears out that Scarlet could shoot 4.5K WS at speed with the current ASIC. Nobody from RED has come out to dispute that it cannot and no official word from Red on 'why not' either.

I think that's what most of the whiners and conspiracy theorists are latching onto.

4KHD is still plenty enough real estate for me and most Scarlet users, though.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

math based on what scarlet can do now? but we don't know the details perhaps the camera can not sustain it at 4k WS, or 4.5k or the stability of the boards across all scarlets is not the same so yes some may be able to do slightly higher frame rates but what if only a small percentage of users would get it that wouldn't be fair and as I see it you wouldn't want to push the boards that far considering all the people complaining the camera's are buggy imagine how buggy they would be when they are pushing everything way past it's limits?

The reality is only red knows what is going on in the scarlets, guess all you want but it's still just that a guess. Wild speculation about something that has not even been hinted at by any red employee seems like a huge waste of time to me.

 

[Josh Snyder]

In my opinion this is the only way we could see high frame rates in Scarlet.

 

[Doug Beatty]

math based on what scarlet can do now? but we don't know the details perhaps the camera can not sustain it at 4k WS, or 4.5k or the stability of the boards across all scarlets is not the same so yes some may be able to do slightly higher frame rates but what if only a small percentage of users would get it that wouldn't be fair and as I see it you wouldn't want to push the boards that far considering all the people complaining the camera's are buggy imagine how buggy they would be when they are pushing everything way past it's limits?

The reality is only red knows what is going on in the scarlets, guess all you want but it's still just that a guess. Wild speculation about something that has not even been hinted at by any red employee seems like a huge waste of time to me.

Again, an official 'why not' from Red would sure go a long way to end the ad nauseum posts from speculators on both sides of the argument.

Back to the original question posed: all costs being equal, a battle tested Epic-X sounds mighty tempting over 6K Dragon. We'll have to wait and see what it can do and how much it will cost though.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think this is the result of the delusional speculation that goes on in these threads by people who put forth their wacky ideas as "fact." (When they actually haven't a clue.) Then, others pick up on those "facts" and amplify them. The whole thing is like a silly game of telephone and what started out as some one person's wacky theory becomes a "known fact that we can all agree on."

Geesh.

There is also a fair bit of past experience laced in there as well. Many other camera and equipment makers out there do exactly this -- sell the exact same unit, but with different internal software/firmware or the removal of one or two components to cripple the item. So some of the incorrect speculation is not unfounded. However, in this case, this does not apply to Scarlet. Scarlet just doesn't contain all the necessary hardware to make it happen. It's cheaper for a reason. You pay less because there is less inside the box. It's still a great camera, but I often find myself scratching my head with some of the comments. For some people, the way they keep claiming they should be getting feature X or feature Y or blah, blah... makes me wonder why they didn't just buy an Epic in the first place. Sure, Epic is more expensive, but but not hugely so.. The camera brain is small beans in the grand scheme of owning a truly useful camera package, IMO. I'd gladly start off with a smaller glass selection, crappier tripod, etc.. if I felt I needed the better camera brain. But that's just me.

 

[Gabriel Scindian]

Ditto

 

[Samir Patel]

here we go again

 

[Dave Blackham]

Scarlet looks perfectly fine to me and good value. If you want higher framerates then buy an Epic. Your talking about two of the leading cameras here.

 

[Josh Snyder]

Scarlet looks perfectly fine to me and good value. If you want higher framerates then buy an Epic. Your talking about two of the leading cameras here.

It's not that they should do it now, but after MX is history in EPIC. If they don't update Scarlet to Dragon, then why not use the few missing hardware pieces used in old EPIC so that Scarlet can be updated even a little bit? It's not like those pieces cost that much anymore. Component prices go down with fast rate these days.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I know ISO performance is one thing why people want Dragon (not to mention jump in dynamic range), but would you rather have the current EPIC specs than crippled Dragon with lower frame rates?

Josh you def in this post and previous ones have shown a proclivity for lowing extreme FPS. I think the FS700 is the camera for you.

I am MUCH more interested in increased dynamic range and ISO, because I want to shoot the most cinematic scenes possible. And that's what Dragon promises. To me, 96fps at 6K with 16 stops of dynamic range brings on a state of rapturous delirium just thinking about it...

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

It's not that they should do it now, but after MX is history in EPIC. If they don't update Scarlet to Dragon, then why not use the few missing hardware pieces used in old EPIC so that Scarlet can be updated even a little bit? It's not like those pieces cost that much anymore. Component prices go down with fast rate these days.

On mass-produced consumer goods that sell millions of units, prices do go down. Not necessarily so on custom ASICs and boards within a camera that serves a niche market. Of course, prices will drop, as we have already. It remains to be seen what RED will do with Scarlet as we enter the Dragon age and as other potential upgrades come about. There is a point where retrofitting an existing camera makes little sense in contrast to buying a new one. In the case of the current Scarlet, it's not simply a matter of dropping in a few parts to increase its power, you don't just tape another ASIC or two inside. Boards are specifically designed to work in unison with the specified components. A hypothetical example to represent the situation would be that a "processor board" in EPIC may have 6 ASICs whereas the counterpart board in Scarlet may have only 3. You can't simply swap out that board in the Scarlet with the one in the EPIC because everything else cascades off of it. Data channels to other boards, other boards that work with the data, etc.. This is why a Scarlet upgrade to Dragon is more involved and RED has little information at this point.

Scarlet owners should be happy, the camera is still a great bargain and an amazing tool. Sure, it's not the right tool for every job and neither is the EPIC, but it's very capable nonetheless. If you need features offered on EPIC like the larger frame size at higher frame rates, then buy an EPIC. Reading through a lot of these threads here, the two sentiments I see most are financially-constricted buyers' remorse and EPIC brain envy. The Scarlet still improves with subsequent firmware, just as EPIC does, but there are a great many things it can't and won't do.

 

[Josh Snyder]

On mass-produced consumer goods that sell millions of units, prices do go down. Not necessarily so on custom ASICs and boards within a camera that serves a niche market. Of course, prices will drop, as we have already. It remains to be seen what RED will do with Scarlet as we enter the Dragon age and as other potential upgrades come about. There is a point where retrofitting an existing camera makes little sense in contrast to buying a new one. In the case of the current Scarlet, it's not simply a matter of dropping in a few parts to increase its power, you don't just tape another ASIC or two inside. Boards are specifically designed to work in unison with the specified components. A hypothetical example to represent the situation would be that a "processor board" in EPIC may have 6 ASICs whereas the counterpart board in Scarlet may have only 3. You can't simply swap out that board in the Scarlet with the one in the EPIC because everything else cascades off of it. Data channels to other boards, other boards that work with the data, etc.. This is why a Scarlet upgrade to Dragon is more involved and RED has little information at this point.

Scarlet owners should be happy, the camera is still a great bargain and an amazing tool. Sure, it's not the right tool for every job and neither is the EPIC, but it's very capable nonetheless. If you need features offered on EPIC like the larger frame size at higher frame rates, then buy an EPIC. Reading through a lot of these threads here, the two sentiments I see most are financially-constricted buyers' remorse and EPIC brain envy. The Scarlet still improves with subsequent firmware, just as EPIC does, but there are a great many things it can't and won't do.

Like I said earlier in this thread, just keep the old EPIC line going and assemble the parts inside Scarlet housing... boom, Scarlet 2.0

 

[Steve Johnson]

Why not just use the current sensor and update the specs to be the same as they are in current EPIC-X? Give the Dragon update just for EPIC. I'm sure Scarlet users would be very happy with "just" 5K for many years to come. I know I would. I would much rather shoot 5K with full sensor than 5K with cropped Dragon sensor, since 6K would be overkill for me and just a waste of data and waste of time in post. This way you would destroy the sub 10k$ market and have the 6K king for 25k$+ market.

I know ISO performance is one thing why people want Dragon (not to mention jump in dynamic range), but would you rather have the current EPIC specs than crippled Dragon with lower frame rates?

Sorry Josh, but do you think that you should be able to buy an Scarlet and get the same specs as an EPIC for $11k less?

Why have an EPIC if the Scarlet has the same specs.

Its been made clear, time and time again that the Scarlet has different boards and interiors than the EPIC, thus why the price point is cheaper. Because the interior boards, components are different, so are the Specs. If you want the specs of an EPIC, buy and EPIC.

The Dragon updates has not been said to be just for EPIC. They don't know what Dragon will be and what it will fit into. Jarred has already said that to change the interiors / boards in the Scarlet to get Dragon in, it might be actually cheaper to buy an EPIC - http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?90522-Scarlet-and-Dragon

Its frustrating to continually hear and read threads from people who have bought a Scarlet and think they should have the same specs as an EPIC for $11k cheaper - why???

 

[Josh Snyder]

Sorry Josh, but do you think that you should be able to buy an Scarlet and get the same specs as an EPIC for $11k less?

Why have an EPIC if the Scarlet has the same specs.

Its been made clear, time and time again that the Scarlet has different boards and interiors than the EPIC, thus why the price point is cheaper. Because the interior boards, components are different, so are the Specs. If you want the specs of an EPIC, buy and EPIC.

The Dragon updates has not been said to be just for EPIC. They don't know what Dragon will be and what it will fit into. Jarred has already said that to change the interiors / boards in the Scarlet to get Dragon in, it might be actually cheaper to buy an EPIC - http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?90522-Scarlet-and-Dragon

Its frustrating to continually hear and read threads from people who have bought a Scarlet and think they should have the same specs as an EPIC for $11k cheaper - why???

Huh? They wouldn't have same specs. I said that they should update Scarlet when EPIC is updated to Dragon.