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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Roger Deakins, ASC vs. 4K

Im not surprised he said this. I own an epic and love it. Been shooting the RED since the exact day it came out and think its incredible and I have also shot a feature Alexa recently.

I think that Epic images are far superior in post then any Alexa Prores image but Deakins aint shooting ProRes.

I'm no scientist but I have some knowledge, some may be correct some not so much, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but from what I understand, and have been told by people that have a lot of juice in the finishing world is that...

When shooting Arriraw 2k to a Codexbox you are shooting a DPX with an ArriRaw Wrapper. My guess is 2k Dpx to 4k DCI which is Motion Jpeg2000 is totally possible.
An R3D is a 4k Motionjpeg2000 with a R3D wrapper...

So when you shoot Epic you are actually shooting MJpeg2000 then up resing to DPX for the finish, then down resing back to MJpeg 2000.

there is a lot of up and down in the process if you ask me.

I didn't watch the video but What I'm sure Roger likes and what I like about the Alexa is that when I look through the Alexa eyepiece, and light what I think is a perfectly lit shot, and then look at my Waveform, I have a perfect Waveform, and then when I look at my T stop and see it says a t4, and then I walk out an take a meter reading and it says T4
I dont get that with the Epic.

If youve been shooting film for 30+years like a master like Deakins who looks through the eyepiece and takes meter readings. This is a big deal, this is what he does.
 
By the year 2020, anyone (I don't care if it's Mr. Deakins or my Mom) suggesting "a 2K upres is good enough" will sound like someone suggesting Neil Armstrong never went to the moon.

We have a saying at Light Iron: "Everything looks good, until you are shown something better."

BTW: a few other things that were "good enough" for society at one time:
480i, mono audio, typewriters, 1inch tape, steamboats.
 
I own 2 epics and a Red and (gasp) I am considering buying an Alexa - why? Two reasons, (1) it is gaining market share. I have lost jobs to it and (2) I like the image's look. Fanboy numbers aside, there is something very organic and (dare I say it) more " film like" and less electronic about it to my eye than the Red's image. If i go to the cinema I can instantly tell if something has been shot Red, but am often surprised to find out later that something was shot Alexa and not on film. That said, I don't like the form factor, nor do I like the fact that it could become surpassed very quickly due to low resolution. Nor do I like the price for a 2k camera. But to suggest that Roger Deakins is laboring under "misconceptions" because he happens to dig the Alexa over the Red is presumptuous. He simply prefers one image over the other He is entitled to his opinion - it has served him well so far in his career. Unfortunately, I am beginning to see what he means.
 
Wait there's something better than steamboats?! haha

Michael Cioni said:
We have a saying at Light Iron: "Everything looks good, until you are shown something better."
Click to expand...

So true Michael. Roger even admits in that interview that he found the grain in the film IMAX projection a bit off-putting. I really respect Mr. Deakins and he's definitely one of the cinematographers I look up to. I can understand where he comes from. Change isn't easy for most people. Especially when you've been doing something for so long. People like routine and when you go and shake things up, people get upset. Plain and simple. I think it's not so much about having to learn to apply oneself in something new, but really having to learn how to actually think differently.

Being on the younger side I've grown up with the constant change of technology as a mainstay. (And its odd to think that I'm probably the last generation to know what analog really was.) That being said, innovation is a messy process, it can be uncertain, and that is quite frightening to people. Whether you embrace it or play it safe I guess depends on you. Not everyone gets it, and that's ok. I'm just glad to be able to talk with people do! They'll come around right?
 
James T Mather said:
If i go to the cinema I can instantly tell if something has been shot Red, but am often surprised to find out later that something was shot Alexa and not on film.
Click to expand...

As any advantage has its opposite effect, so does the amount of captured detail.

Colorist factor kept in mind, naturally.
 
I like the fact that I can rack my shots in abouyt to 400% without hesitation..

I like the fact I can chuck a camera and 6 lenses and a half a dozen batteries in my back pack, travel around the world without the need of dragging an expensive team around and shoot at 120 fps in RAW 5k... oh and charge for the camera as well.

I like the fact my camera is half the price and shoots 5k at 120 fps,

I like the fact my camera is 1/3 the weight and size...

I like the fact that I don't need to rent... or go through the dramas of renting, retuning...renting, retuning...renting, retuning...renting, retuning...renting, retuning... and then realizing that the amount I spend in renting the camera that year, i could have bought 3 of my own..

I like the fact I can put on my fav PL lenses, canon lens, nikon lenses....

I like the fact that my shots are so sharp and clean that if I want to make them a touch softer like the Alexa's, I can.

I like the fact that I can capture 18stops HDR at the touch of a button...

I like the fact that I can upgrade to more powerful sensor for less that $6000 instead of having to buy a whole new camera...

I like the fact that when RED to software upgrades I don't have pay for them... And sometimes my picture quality gets better.

I like the fact that if I wanted to finish a movie in 4k and look like it was shoot in 4k (instead of uprezed 2k) then I can...

I like the fact that that I purchased a RED EPIC and ever looked back or regret a single moment of owning it.

Does it really matter.... 2k 4k 8k... NO...

None of this resolution talk really concerns me at all.... but I like having it on tap !

Only content concerns me now... :)
 
Michael Cioni said:
By the year 2020, anyone (I don't care if it's Mr. Deakins or my Mom) suggesting "a 2K upres is good enough" will sound like someone suggesting Neil Armstrong never went to the moon.

We have a saying at Light Iron: "Everything looks good, until you are shown something better."

BTW: a few other things that were "good enough" for society at one time:
480i, mono audio, typewriters, 1inch tape, steamboats.
Click to expand...

Well, I guess in 2030, all the stuff shot on REDMX and Epic and Scarlets wont be good enough since things will eventually keep progressing and progressing.

I say, find the tool you love, shoot what you love, and experience what you love, because what it all boils down to is this: We don't have infinite time on this earth. We have to do what we love with what we love and just enjoy it.

I hate arguments over 4k/2k/1k.. I understand they are necessary at times, but most of the time it's just people trying to prove their camera or purchase.

Who cares. Just do what you love and keep doing it.
 
I wonder what he would say about a proprietary monochrome sensor? It's known black and white film stocks don't behave the same way color stocks do desaturated. I wonder if he would approve or not, this would be a true test to what I already think (and I love Mr. Deakins work), if he can give a neutral opinion as to how marvelous it is RED setting trends and watching others follow. It's just sad to see so many stubborn folks around the world.
 
This is directed at no-one in particular (more of a general feeling about any thread which raises unpopular, but relevant, ideas).

I think the only issue I have with this forum is that it's public and forces people to come out strongly in favour of one side or the other (usually one side), like myopically supporting a football team Alexa/Red, Liverpool/Man United, Blur/Oasis, Mac/PC, My religion/Your religion. This drowns out relevant discussion. Just because I utilise one doesn't mean I can't see the virtues of another - nor rationally discuss the pros and cons without getting someone who feels their principles are being pinched in some way. I'm invested in Red products as much as anyone and no doubt they have kicked the motion picture industry hard in the pants - but corporations that survive change are quick learners and the Alexa has closed the gap recently. There is no doubt of this. Is it not wise to ask why this is so? Or do we just keep pushing the same old points over and over fanatic-style. To me, that way lies trouble.


I'm no zealot about cameras - in the same way I'd shoot Fuji or Kodak (and saw pros and cons with both) or shooting on a PV Millennium or an Arri 535 - both had advantages and disadvantages - but then we were impartial. Our only interest at that time was in the project itself. Now we are becoming evangelists for a brand. This is, in my opinion, dangerous.

I think the Red One and Epic are terrific cameras. I also think the Alexa is a terrific camera. All have strengths and weaknesses. Sun Tzu style I am asking why this is so. Getting hassled about it and telling people they are wrong or idiots or blaming the colourist or the editor isn't going to win anyone over. I'd rather figure out what is the other systems advantage and address it in future builds or new sensors.

As consumers, our only mechanism for doing this is this forum. This is why I am honest in my questions and opinions. All the film guys were using the same this-is-better-you're-an-idiot-for-thinking-any-different argument five years ago when the digital writing was on the wall. Look where that got them.

I propose that there be a closed / owner section to Reduser where controversial ideas can be freely discussed and questions raised - that way people can have more frank conversations without fear that they are ticking off people who are hell bent on publicly "defending" the brand name. Keep this offline to the general public so that ideas that depart with the party line are kept off the public record - but with the proviso that threads stay on topic and keep the shouty rhetoric to a minimum (ie: zero). Thoughts?

Doesn't everyone want to have a serious open discussion as to why the Alexa is making such inroads into feature film and Television production - or are all those Alexa people just "uninformed simpletons"?

"If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself." - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
 
Love the quote James, and yes, I think the Arri Alexa is a fine camera, it's just not for me. And I think that is what separates a lot of Alexa owners I talk to and RED owners. I see the benefit of the Alexa and comfort to those who like the company and camera. Arri/Alexa folks generally are divisive and can't see a place for RED anywhere. It's silly. And Vadim... I respect Mr. Deakins about as much as anyone. He has created outstanding work my point is... So has RED.
 
James, that's pretty much exactly how I feel. I'm always amazed at how closely these camera discussions resemble the political debates in this country. Its as if you can't like anything the other side says or does, and that is just silly. Thanks for sharing your refreshing perspective James. Peace.
 
Thanks Paul - Very true but the same could be said for Red owners vis a vis Alexa. It seems to be the new religion now that Scientology is in disrepute.

I'd just like a more relaxed atmosphere to discuss image characteristics of various systems in a dispassionate and objective way. I don't think simply that the Arri's current success is simply down to comfort-zone and brand loyalty - there are differences in picture feel that I think the market is responding to. These can be mitigated by the DOP but winning back market share is all about perception. A fanboy forum which seeks to win over people who already own a Red camera is a pretty easy crowd, let's be honest. I'm talking about the market outside this group.

I don't relish the idea of shelling out eighty grand for a new system when I have three already but if there is no place to discuss the differing qualities between systems rationally (and not like shouters at a football game) with a view to getting these implemented or bettered in a future upgrade. It's not an option I'm massively thrilled about but in the absence of other choices then I regrettably may have no choice.
 
Paul Ellington said:
I think that is what separates a lot of Alexa owners I talk to and RED owners. I see the benefit of the Alexa and comfort to those who like the company and camera. Arri/Alexa folks generally are divisive and can't see a place for RED anywhere. It's silly
Click to expand...

I can also agree with this :)
 
Clint Lealos said:
James, that's pretty much exactly how I feel. I'm always amazed at how closely these camera discussions resemble the political debates in this country. Its as if you can't like anything the other side says or does, and that is just silly. Thanks for sharing your refreshing perspective James. Peace.
Click to expand...

Thanks Clint. Not trying to start a brand war but really just trying to get some useful perspective on things. No disrespect intended to Mr. Jannard, all the fine folks at Red and members of this forum.
 
James T Mather said:
Thanks Paul - Very true but the same could be said for Red owners vis a vis Alexa. It seems to be the new religion now that Scientology is in disrepute.

I'd just like a more relaxed atmosphere to discuss image characteristics of various systems in a dispassionate and objective way. I don't think simply that the Arri's current success is simply down to comfort-zone and brand loyalty - there are differences in picture feel that I think the market is responding to. These can be mitigated by the DOP but winning back market share is all about perception. A fanboy forum which seeks to win over people who already own a Red camera is a pretty easy crowd, let's be honest. I'm talking about the market outside this group.

I don't relish the idea of shelling out eighty grand for a new system when I have three already but if there is no place to discuss the differing qualities between systems rationally (and not like shouters at a football game) with a view to getting these implemented or bettered in a future upgrade. It's not an option I'm massively thrilled about but in the absence of other choices then I regrettably may have no choice.
Click to expand...

I used to discuss this more, but because of what you are describing and see on this thread, I do it less. I must say though that as a RED owner I love it for all the reasons Mr. Toia states, and have seen the Alexa, what it can do and understand that ease of use suits a lot of suits. That being said, what I think you are hearing is a lot of people RED owners (me included), who would like to see more parity in global views on cinema and also just plain and simple -- honesty regarding the RED line of gear. I am not going to repeat I find super annoying, but I can't ever get an Alexa owner to say... "I understand that you like the RED camera for it's flexibility and post work".

Yes, it's a hot-button debate. Yes, RED guys are my guys and my gear. Yes Arri makes a fine camera, I would bet you that more Arri owners than RED owners would dig their heels in when tipping the cap to the other. It's almost like religion as you said, in my case, I am not going to push my beliefs on you, in other peoples beliefs they feel the need to win you over and push the others down. I ask, which thing is the better thing?

PS - not touching religion with a 10 Foot or 300 line of site pole.

- Paul
 
Id think it is a good and respectful approach to highlight the other alternatives. Truth is Alexa, Epic and F65 make nice images. All are excellent cameras. I like the look of Alexa but I also like the look of Epic and I think that is where the real issue lies, it is subjective, I don't think you can say this one or that one looks better its just different.

From a technology point of view there any many flavours of Alexa now. Sensor aspect ratios and also view finder configurations. The biggest difference appears to be the ability for those who want to record to Prores in camera as effectively Alexia is an HD camera which can have a simple workflow if thats needed, my guess is the proxy module or messier Module will close that gap for Red. To compete with Epic R3D's Aklexa needs an external Codex recorder or similar to gain higher resolution and raw workflow, media from both cameras need a more complex workflow that the baked in Prores or DnX file cant give, it provides a much better resultant image of course, and I dont think you can compare Alexa Prores offering with Reds R3d. With both companies working on higher DR, lower noise and better colour processing then this can only be good news for end users.

The only thing I can't understand is why Arri as yet havnt released a higher resolution camera and appear not to be doing so for a while.

Our money still is with Red, thats where we invested and are happy with the cameras and the images they create.

I complete respect Roger Deakins work which is superb an his choice of camera.
 
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