Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Rock Concert Footage

S

sbcooler

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
153
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New York
Has anyone here shot rock concert footage in either a stadium or large club? And with lighting effects, strobbing, very bright spotlights and then pitch black spots so near each other in the same frame? I'm shooting this and now looking to do much MUCH better than my current setup which frankly stinks for this kind of work (I use Sony Z1u's and they just don't hold up well at all with this kind of work). I usually cannot control the lighting nor does the band want that...they want the full effect of there shows.

Has anyone shot that with the RedOne this kind of footage? And if so what kind of results have you gotten...what are the strengths and weakenesses of shooting this from your experience? Is the Red the best way to go for this.

My budget is not unlimited as I am a smaller player. I was thinking 6 Scarlets or the like and 1 bigger cam...a Red or Sony F950.

Anyone with direct experience shooting and editing this kind of stuff? Thanks-
 
U2 3D was shot on (stereo) F950 rigs, and looked gorgeous. Admittedly they may have tweaked the concert lighting for the cameras, but I doubt they made serious changes.

REDCODE will handle high-contrast scenes just fine, however strobing could be an issue. It's something I'd like to test myself as soon as I can.
 
Zak, you're the guy I'm looking for. I'd be very, VERY interested to hear your unbiased impressions of our Red (and any other cams you use) shooting rock shows.

Strengths, weaknesses...like to hear it all. All the tiny details too!

A big THANKS in advance-
 
sbcooler said:
Has anyone here shot rock concert footage in either a stadium or large club?
Click to expand...

Yes. I've directed/dp'd quite a few.


sbcooler said:
I usually cannot control the lighting nor does the band want that...they want the full effect of there shows.
Click to expand...

Controlling the lighting so it works for cameras does not necessarily mean you're not giving "the full effect". It might mean that if the person modifying the concert LDs work doesn't know what they're doing, but know that it doesn't HAVE to mean lessening the impact of the show.

Often contrast levels in a live show are a little too much for video cameras, so that would mean placing *small* amounts of fill light. This can be done using NC fills (no color, in concert LD parlance) from the upstage truss, OR putting them on the front edge of the stage down by the monitors. The key is for the lighting op to have them on a fader at all times, and have a feed of one of the cameras so both you and him can talk during the show as you're watching that monitor.

sbcooler said:
Has anyone shot that with the RedOne this kind of footage? And if so what kind of results have you gotten...what are the strengths and weakenesses of shooting this from your experience? Is the Red the best way to go for this.
Click to expand...

I've shot with the Red, but not a concert yet. I would expect the Red to hold the contrast levels quite well, and more importantly, what does blow out of the lighting will do so very gracefully, given correct post processing.

One reason you would NOT want to shoot a concert with Reds is if you do not have budget for EXPERIENCED 1st ACs on all or most of the cameras. Focus wide open on a quickly moving rock concert is no joke, and if your operators or ACs can't handle it, you're going to be very unhappy with all the out of focus material. Adding 5 1st ACs to say, a 7 camera concert is not cheap.

The only way this might not be quite as big of a deal, is if the final product is standard definition...the downconvert will hide a lot of focus sins, but not all.
 
The other issue is the harmonics causing dropped frames.
I just shot a night club and got dropped frames galore. RedCine doesn't like dropped frames.
So, tonight I'm planning to shoot to CF cards mostly and then switch to a Red Drive wrapped in a sweatshirt.
 
I got dropped frames one night when I was practically inside the ampilfier on stage, a foot away from the guitar player. I thought it was because I was being rough with the drive. In retrospect I think it was this harmonic dropped frames thing. Is there a way to prevent this? Is there a way for Red to prevent this in future Red drives? Something inside the drive soundproofing subsonics?
 
What did your footage look like? I would assume that if vibration was enough to throw the drive off, it would be enough to make the shot unusable (even if it was subtle)
 
We recently shot a jazz band in a smaller club but we had no control over the lighting. That said, here's what we managed to produce:

A009_C020_080410_4757.png


A009_C022_080410_0000.png


A009_C020_080410_1604.png


A009_C006_080410_1890.png


As you can see Red holds the dynamic range beautifully given the conditions. With the ability to manipulate the RAW image in so many ways you should be able to find a good balance between the highlights and dark areas and still produce a very clean image even in less than optimal conditions.

HTH

Paul
 
NateWeaver said:
What did your footage look like? I would assume that if vibration was enough to throw the drive off, it would be enough to make the shot unusable (even if it was subtle)
Click to expand...

Footage looked great. Just has dropped frames which appear blue. When RC gets to the 1st frame of blue, it stops working.
 
How do I contact Blair Paulsen?

Also, how would you compare shooting rock concert videos with Sonys HDCAM (F900 say) vs Panasonics HPX 3000 using AVC Intra? Which is better in low light? Which will have a higher dynamic range for capturing deep blacks and bright whites in the same frame?

My hope is that the Scarlet with it's easier to focus 2/3 sensor will be only a half step down from these very expensive cams and justify to me buying 6 of them!

To RED, I'd gladly pay $10,000 for a 2/3" sensor with the great RED codec, something similar to the P2 that can or soon will hold 64GB per card (2 cards in a cam would be a full 2 hour concert!), that can do great in low light, high dynamic range and perhaps minimize the rolling shutter issues from flashes and strobing if possible.

If you can get a notch below the Panni and Sony which are both $50K and 100K cams respectively BEFORE buying a lense we are in business...again I'd gladly pay $10K and buy multiple ones. And I'd gladly pay even more than that to buy lenses.

But at this moment I really want to know the comparison for rock concerts between Sony HDCAM and Panni's newer AVC Intra Cam HPX 3000 (with true sensors 1,920 x 1,080 (3) sensors)???

Anyone?
 
Over the years I've been the producer, director, DP, and/or camera operator for many concerts. Artists included: Three Dog Night, Sawyer Brown, War, Burning Spear, Sprung Monkey, Common Sense, Sunchild, and many others. Some of the concerts were indoor venues, and others were outside. All of that work was non-hardlined EFP style (no truck or cabling to cameras), using B4 2/3" EFP/ENG camera systems - although we even shot some of the concerts with 1/2" and 1/3" camera systems. I also produced/directed/shot music and club productions for many clubs: On Broadway Event Center (San Diego), and multiple clubs when I was based in Las Vegas. I've also produced/directed/shot VH1-style lifestyle profiles of multiple bands.

So, what have I learned from this work? I love doing music and club production! But as Nate and others have said, there are unique challenges involved.

First off, as mentioned above, all of the music and club production I've been involved with was non-hardlined and EFP style - where each camera operator racked their own focus, and the shows, videos, or segments were edited in post. Using 2/3" (or smaller) sensors obviously deepened the depth of field - but shallow DOF wasn't what we were after, except for certain creative b-roll shots. Apertures were generally between f4 and f11 depending on what was being shot. Except for the wide cover (safety) camera, everything was shot hand held and with various jibs. With it not being hardlined, as a director I obviously couldn't see what each camera was framing, so it was critical that I select camera operators whose camera skills were good for what I wanted from them, and then briefed each of them closely for exactly what I needed from them: framing, composition, DOF, etc. During breaks, if I had time, I'd quickly spot check each cameras footage. If there wasn't time, then I'd have to trust that I selected the right camera people and briefed them correctly. In post we'd find out how each one did. Usually it was fine - but there were occasional disappointments.

I haven't shot a concert or club with RED ONE yet. That said, if I was, the field workflow would vary depending depending on the format it was to be shot on. If it was to be shot with RED ONE cameras using the RED B4 adaptor, 2/3" HD EFP/ENG zooms, and the RED B4 to RS232/12v cable (enabling powered start/stop and zoom on the lenses), then I'd approach it the same as the B4 2/3" non-hardlined EFP workflow I described above.

If the RED-covered concert or club coverage was to be in 4k or using 35 mm cine setups, then obviously the field workflow and crew requirements would be different. That's where using AC's for certain cameras to pull focus would come in, as Nate has mentioned. Since the final product would be created in post, I may still place a few roving stabilization unit cameras, shooting medium DOF shots, pulling their own focus on the fly. Jibs would also be shooting medium to deeper DOF shots and pull their own focus. If the shooting was to be in 3k, I'd probably use less AC's, and staff camera ops who were highly experienced at pulling their own focus on the fly.

Straight cine-style equipment and crew is not the only option when using RED ONE. Other options are hybrid cine/EFP style, and straight EFP style. In music and club production there are many options and flavors of these styles to choose from, depending on your specific project needs, budget, and equipment available.

Beyond all our RED's (seven of them), we also own and use an F900R and a couple EX1's. The F900 and EX1s would obviously be easier to shoot a concert with than our REDs, but then again the REDs shoot RAW, with all its post possibilities. One concept would be to shoot the hyper-creative b-roll with the REDs, and the core coverage with the F900 and EX1s, then blend the footage in post, using the strengths of each camera system.

Sidelight: RED ONE does have genlock, RS232, and other features that partway enable hardlined multi-camera production. There would be some obvious workaround needs: return video, intercom, etc., but I would expect someone, at some point, to experiment with this.

Bottom line: Is music and club production easier with B4 2/3" camera systems? Yes and no, depending on the needs of your project. Using RED ONE can it be done straight cine-style with all cine equipment and crew positions? Definitely. Can it be done with RED using hybrid cine/EFP equipment and crews? Definitely. Can it be done with RED using straight EFP equipment and crew? Definitely. RED seriously opens up a lot of creative and field workflow options. All of the above said, when using RED for music and club production, what you'll need no matter what style or equipment you use, is a very good data wrangler with the equipment and RED knowledge to quickly and accurately process your files on site.

IMO Scarlet will be a seriously cool and capable addition to many genres of production, including music and club production. Picture being able to plant Scarlets with POV angles all over the stage or venue, shooting 3k at various frame rates, The added editing possibilities in post from an array of Scarlet POV cameras. would be way cool. Someone on a budget could also have all the hand held, stabilization unit, and jib cameras be Scarlets, all shooting 3k. IMO in the hands of open-minded and creative professionals, Scarlet will be a potent creative tool.

EPIC will also up the possibilities for this type of production. With its light weight (more mobility), smaller form factor, higher frame rates, and lower compression, I could easily see EPIC being the A camera for these shoots, with RED ONE also being an A camera or B camera, and Scarlet being an A or B camera depending on the style of the production and its budget.

Hope the above insight helps. There's more than one way to shoot a production - and there's more than one way to approach using RED cameras.
 
I spoke to a guy today at a major league baseball game that was shooting fans and such in between innings and it was being shown on the big screen in front of 30,000 people. He said he has shot rock concerts also.

On a big Panni 2/3" sensor (standard def though) he says he always shoots alone..he frames the shot and at the same time is constantly adjusting the focus manually just a little bit here and there...he also sets the aperture MANUALLY. So he's doing 3 things at once!

He told me if the lighting changes drastically he showed me a button to press which make it go into an auto mode and and then right back to manual, but close to where he needs to be.

So is the way to shoot live action sporting events or rock concerts when using a 2/3" sensor to adjust focus, aperture manually while framing the whole show?

Boy, if this is so, I'll need some serious practice to keep up and make my stuff look good. Does anyone else shoot this way for live action events?

Thanks
 
sbcooler said:
So is the way to shoot live action sporting events or rock concerts when using a 2/3" sensor to adjust focus, aperture manually while framing the whole show?
Click to expand...

If you're hardlined (i.e. connected to a control system of some kind) generally there will be someone at the other end running your iris, but the rest is up to you.
 
sbcooler said:
On a big Panni 2/3" sensor (standard def though) he says he always shoots alone..he frames the shot and at the same time is constantly adjusting the focus manually just a little bit here and there...he also sets the aperture MANUALLY. So he's doing 3 things at once!
Click to expand...

Ah, this just reminded me so much of my first 2/3" shoot.... having never used a "big" camera before......

Fashion show at night, the lens wide open, at the end of the runway pulling focus as the models came towards me and away again, zoom controller on the tripod handle and bouncing the iris about as the lighting guy decided to mess us up again....talk about in at the deep end!

The plus is that after 3 hours of that your hands get pretty good, the minus is that you realise you've been staring at semi-nude girls for 3 hours and never seen more than their eyes :biggrin:
 
That was the best post yet! When I video, I try to catch everything in my view that can look good, but until I get home, I never know quite what I got or what I missed!
 
Has anyone seen Shine A Light yet? I saw it in IMAX and I have to say, focus was off many times, but never really bothered me as there was enough movement, the cuts were pretty quick, and it was good old rock and roll. Mick is always moving all over the place, so I'm sure it's tough to keep him locked in.

It looks like I'll be shooting a show in the summer, so I'll be doing some tests with stage lighting in a few weeks.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top