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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Resurrecting the DRAGON

Eric Santiago

Eric Santiago

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Now that I have your attention, this is my post for questions regarding the EPIC 6K DSMC1 DRAGON.
Instead of me posting a single question at a time I figure I will try it this way.
First off, I love this camera. It's new to me even though I've had my personal (original BTS) Scarlet since 2012 and a RED ONE MX at day job since 2009.
So far the little differences are a plus. I welcome change even though it's from 2014.

My first question should be easy but I had a hard time searching RU for a solid answer.
I shot an outdoor skate session with friends using a Rokinon 50mm and .6 filter.
Settings were the 6K@82.xx fps. It was beautiful to see a RED do that :)
No lighting all slightly sunny with some clouds here and there.
I did not black shade so hopefully, that's the quick answer.
The footage had some noise and wondering if that's normal.
I know what noise is with the Scarlet (HFR) but would like to know if this is the norm with the DRAGON.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EgB...ew?usp=sharing

Remember there are no stupid questions ;)

Thanks in advance...I am sure there are more questions coming.
 
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Hi Eric. Without an R3D frame grab at a minimum it's all words and nothing to respond to really :(

Sensor Calibration is indeed important. Far more so on OG DSMC bodies.
 
Phil Holland said:
Hi Eric. Without an R3D frame grab at a minimum it's all words and nothing to respond to really :(
Click to expand...

Wow thanks, Phil so glad you still answer these. I read a ton of your wisdom wished it was in Coles notes form ;)
I will dig up a frame asap.

Sensor Calibration is indeed important. Far more so on OG DSMC bodies.
Click to expand...
I suspected that and lack of prep time.
I am still unclear as to when to do this.
Some info states at the actual scene site and temperature, others state in a dark closet what about outdoors?
I've only ever had to do this indoor.
 
G'day Eric!

What do you see as the most significant differences between the sensor images from the Dragon opposed to the MX?
 
PatrickWebb said:
G'day Eric!

What do you see as the most significant differences between the sensor images from the Dragon opposed to the MX?
Click to expand...

I will be honest the DRAGON has not been in my hands long enough.
I did some basic tests in the house using a few cats as my subject and did notice the frames are much cleaner looking than the Scarlet.
Bad lighting in my living room as well as non-helpful actors don't help.
No tests with actual studio lights just a few indoors and a ton of outdoor skateboarding.
We had to get as much of the outdoor stuff in, November is roll the dice month due to weather change.
Good timing, today our city is frozen with sleets of rain/ice :P
I am trying to setup a day in a studio with both cameras and a subject.
Hoping thats soon.
 
I exported a frame from RCX and added a link to the original post.
I can only see the noise when the video is playing back so maybe it's not so bad.
 
Hi Eric. Downloaded the clip. A few notes.

- Don't shoot at 17:1 if you can avoid it. You will see visual improvements, especially on DSMC1 cameras at the lowest compression ratios. Generally 5:1 through 8:1 is considered best practices for general shooting. Looks like this was shot at 83fps, so not much to be done there.

- Lowering the ISO potentially can help as most of what I'm seeing is in shadows. Latitude-wise you could have exposed this at ISO 400 which *might* improve things.

- In comparison to Mysterium-X, this Dragon is equipped with the Standard OLPF. Slightly noisier due to how the filter works and eats light, but also slightly better color.

The noise you are seeing is likely compression related in this case however. Color looks fine overall. Sensor Calibration is always recommended as needed, don't think that played a factor here.
 
Phil Holland said:
Hi Eric. Downloaded the clip. A few notes.

- Don't shoot at 17:1 if you can avoid it. You will see visual improvements, especially on DSMC1 cameras at the lowest compression ratios. Generally 5:1 through 8:1 is considered best practices for general shooting.
Click to expand...
Uggh yep that's a user error. I didn't even know till you mentioned it. We were playing with framerates and I think the camera chose that compression.
But I could be wrong.

- Lowering the ISO potentially can help as most of what I'm seeing is in shadows. Latitude-wise you could have exposed this at ISO 400 which *might* improve things.
Click to expand...
With the ND screw in at .6 I didnt even bother to play with the ISO so left it at default 800.

- In comparison to Mysterium-X, this Dragon is equipped with the Standard OLPF. Slightly noisier due to how the filter works and eats light, but also slightly better color.
Click to expand...
I am still learning about the OLFP and your info is gold!

The noise you are seeing is likely compression related in this case however. Color looks fine overall. Sensor Calibration is always recommended as needed, don't think that played a factor here.
Click to expand...
Learning that now and thank you for taking the time to answer this.
Best we work these kinks out now before we start on an actual project.

Thanks again, Phil!
 
After checking back the last few HFR clips I've shot I noticed something and I wasn't sure if it was normal.
The 6K DRAGON would change the compression on its own.
Does it do this in relation to the media used or is intermittent?
My Scarlet was always set and never really had to change it.
I will dig deep again in RU to see if this is the norm.
 
Hi Eric, just noticed this thread. Congrats on getting hold of an Epic Dragon.

Yes, the camera will change RC compression ratio to accommodate your chosen frame-rate and resolution.

Something else to look out for there is, with no media attached or mounted, it will look like you have all the frame-rates and resolutions available to use, until you do attach or mount the media, then you'll see the RC compression ratio's that are actually available to shoot with using your chosen frame-rates and resolutions.
 
Les Hillis said:
Yes, the camera will change RC compression ratio to accommodate your chosen frame-rate and resolution.
Click to expand...
So glad to hear that.

Something else to look out for there is, with no media attached or mounted, it will look like you have all the frame-rates and resolutions available to use, until you do attach or mount the media, then you'll see the RC compression ratio's that are actually available to shoot with using your chosen frame-rates and resolutions.
Click to expand...
Wow, that's very helpful Les, thank you!

This is why I love RU so much :)
 
To keep this thread going I am adding a new post.
I've been using the RED 18-85/50-150 and loving it!
Again this is a simple run and gun with some fun outdoor shots to test out HFR.
I also did my best to follow the steps above the results are much better for me.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CWgv1pRgpb-/?utm_medium=copy_link
Not sure if its prudent to post these.
 
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I'm back again with more quick questions regarding RC settings.
The yellow compression tag is that a definite selection or can I go up and down to the available options.
I ask this since I've forced it to a lower one and don't seem to notice any issues.
I guess I could have read the settings in RCX but I figured to ask anyway :)
 
do a test shoot at 3.1 I would love to see the out come of that...Good or Bad??
 
Aaron michaels said:
do a test shoot at 3.1 I would love to see the out come of that...Good or Bad??
Click to expand...

I will def do that soon. I have done a few at 5:1 but playing around with new lighting gear.
I'll try and post those soon.
 
Are you talking about compression ratios? You can only get 3:1 if you drop down to 5k on DSMC1... And even that is only on mini-mags (pretty sure you've got to drop down to 4k on 1.8" mags to go that low).

The lowest you can get at FF6k on DSMC1 is 4:1 with the highest-speed mini-mags (aka 512/480+). Realistically there is no discernible difference between almost all the settings for a 4k~streamable delivery spec (~25mbit). You've really gotta be pushing things and be going for a disc based delivery (~100mbit) to notice the benefits.

Here's a quick one:
 
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Mike P. said:
Are you talking about compression ratios? You can only get 3:1 if you drop down to 5k on DSMC1...
Click to expand...

Thanks, Mike for clarifying :)
The video is also great for reference.
 
I finally got some time in with a few music videos and a shorty.
Oh, so many questions but will need to write it all down and send in smaller packets.
All I can say is that the DRAGON does not disappoint.
I've only been using RPZs of late and cant wait for another project to test out the RPPs.
 
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