Resolve on PC

[M Most]

Do bear in mind, Mike, that free and cheap is exactly what Blackmagic Design has built their business plan on. And it's worked. Seems to be working OK for Apple as well. And no, I don't own BMD, nor do I work there any more - but I did and I still keep in close contact with the guys. The free/cheap business model works and it works because of volume. Spend the money on R&D (and efficiently, very efficiently in BMD's case - talk to any of the now very, very happy engineers at Davinci), reduce the cost of distribution (Apple are leading the way here with the App Store - FCP-X at $299 download will generate far greater profit than the boxed version at $999). Meanwhile Avid are laying people off.

I can't believe you're comparing Blackmagic and Apple - both of which are primarily hardware companies that happen to develop some software - to Avid, which today is primarily a software company that also does some hardware, primarily through Digidesign and Euphonix, but not under the editing software division. Apple, in particular, has never, ever been "free/cheap." In fact, it has generally been just the opposite - on its hardware, which is its primary business. Blackmagic has been a mixed bag, competing with the generally more well regarded Aja on miniconverters and video boards, but going its own way with things like the router, scopes, and now DDR's. Resolve is their first software product and they decided to go a certain way with it. The success of their approach is yet to be determined, and I don't think you know the volume of seats sold any more than I do. The notion of electronic software distribution and remote licensing is not new, nor was it originated by Blackmagic. A number of companies have been doing this for quite some time, including Avid. And yes, it is efficient.

I know how keen you are to protect your patch of turf Mike but this isn't a race to the bottom. Resolve on Mac is a very stable, very powerful application. Nothing bottom about it. Grant just sees a little further into the future than most of his competitors. And just because some of the people on here may not have the money to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on kit doesn't mean they're any less talented or capable. Doesn't mean they're not either. It's just not related at all.

I'm not protecting anything. I don't own a facility (although I do happen to own a personal copy of Resolve) and I don't plan on investing in one. What I do for a living is protected by whatever reputation I have and whatever talent and experience people perceive me as having, the cost of the equipment I run (which I don't own) is only peripherally related to that. Having run both the Mac and Linux versions of the current builds of Resolve, I would say that the Linux version is quite a bit snappier, and that is important to professional colorists working with clients on tight turnarounds. "Protecting my turf" for me is just doing my job, and quite frankly, I couldn't care less whether that means working on a Baselight, Lustre, Resolve, or anything else, nor do I care whether it's running on Linux, OS X, Windows, or any other OS. People here seem to think I have a personal stake in some of the opinions I state, but that is not the motivation for the way I tend to think. I just state what I think is truth. It doesn't mean I have any kind of investment to protect or that I don't see what everyone else sees. As for what Grant sees as the future, time will tell if making pennies on software is something that can be sustainable in a niche market like color grading, or whether going that route can make grading less of a niche market. I'm not making any predictions on that.

 

[jake blackstone]

Really? The guys I've spoken to are extremely happy with the change. Less management, more engineering. BMD works at a cracking pace. Always a very exciting company to be with. Are you talking to guys that used to work there or the guys that still do? Not challenging you, BTW, just curious. I guess mileage varies.

I can't be too specific for obvious reasons But, yes, I'm talking about career DaVinci guys.
Remember, you're talking about a new Singapore and Ozzy company now. The old American company no longer exists. Florida and LA offices, which were the heart of the company are pretty much gone. What's to be happy about? Those factory engineers didn't relocate, their jobs did and majority were just let go...

 

[Brad Allen]

I'm not sure if it's intended but I feel like your being a little hostile Mike. I'm not trying to bicker or quarrel with you about anything. I'm simply trying to discuss ideas

I'm not arguing that BM should design resolve for Windows if it is not financially viable. The whole assumption of business endeavor is that it will be profitable. If a Windows version is not feasible financially then it's not worth even discussing.

Resolve on Windows is not an existing product.

That's correct. But Resolve itself is an existing product and developing an existing product for a new platform is less work than never having the product to begin with right? Sure, there are costs (no one is denying this), but the assumption is that whatever price they charged for it would cover these costs.

Only if it's profitable, and at the prices you're talking about, they'd have to sell a hell of a lot of seats for that to be the case. Hell, I don't think BM is even sure that the Mac product is going to be profitable over the long term yet.

Yes, only if it is profitable. The reason I created this thread was to gauge if there were people who would want some of those seats.

I don't know why you would think that Windows has some sort of advantage in terms of networking, but in my world I've never found that to be the case at all. Expandability might be a slightly different story, but BM already has the Linux product for those that need expandability beyond what the Mac can support.

I probably should have clarified on this point. The advantage here is that I wouldn't have to think about networking if it was on Windows. For a freelance designer such as myself this is a fairly big incentive as it means I'm not concerned with centralized storage or moving 100's of Gb's of raw camera files around between workstations. I could edit and grade on the same workstation. I understand that this isn't a concern for bigger players, but it's still a pretty major incentive for smaller players like me.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Objection: Resolve on Windows will put a strain on Support
Jake has already mentioned this, but support is purchased on a pay per occurrence deal. If the Windows platform caused an additional burden to the support system, then the dollars from those windows users would pay for their support.

Support for DaVinci is NOT on a pay per occurrence deal. Support for DaVinci is currently AMAZING - I've had times where I reported a bug, they try to track it down immediately... and then in the middle of the night I'm emailed a new build of the software!

If those guys working their asses off for us want us to have a Mac - and having a limited number of configs helps them debug, I say we get a Mac.

But you make a good point - if a Windows version got them more sales, then they could hire more coders (potentially even a separate "PC port" team which doesn't interfere with the core team). Although that would presumably also cut into the more profitable Linux sales as one of the advantages of the Linux version (can build a mega system with a ton of GPUs) is negated?

Maybe do a poll and see how many Windows people you get? I will look out for it and would definitely tick the box marked "I would buy a Windows version to run alongside the Mac version".

I can't be too specific for obvious reasons But, yes, I'm talking about career DaVinci guys.
Remember, you're talking about a new Singapore and Ozzy company now. The old American company no longer exists. Florida and LA offices, which were the heart of the company are pretty much gone.

They do have a physical office in LA - with great guys like Mark Thompson. I know this is not a hoax because I visited them before NAB to say thanks and drop off a hard drive full of Epic footage to help them test.

What's to be happy about? Those factory engineers didn't relocate, their jobs did and majority were just let go...

I suspect some of those folks might have been let go before Blackmagic bought them? Hope that some of the talented folks remain - Resolve has a damn fine foundation! I don't know, I wasn't tracking DaVinci with as much interest when it was out of my price bracket All I cared about DaVinci-wise then was what CO3's discount rates for a bay were at 3AM.

My impression is that the team on Resolve is growing - and doing a fantastic job right now.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Peace Villow]

The reason I created this thread was to gauge if there were people who would want some of those seats.

You should start a poll.

 

[jake blackstone]

Support for DaVinci is NOT on a pay per occurrence deal. Support for DaVinci is currently AMAZING - I've had times where I reported a bug, they try to track it down immediately... and then in the middle of the night I'm emailed a new build of the software!

If those guys working their asses off for us want us to have a Mac - and having a limited number of configs helps them debug, I say we get a Mac.

But you make a good point - if a Windows version got them more sales, then they could hire more coders (potentially even a separate "PC port" team which doesn't interfere with the core team). Although that would presumably also cut into the more profitable Linux sales as one of the advantages of the Linux version (can build a mega system with a ton of GPUs) is negated?

Maybe do a poll and see how many Windows people you get? I will look out for it and would definitely tick the box marked "I would buy a Windows version to run alongside the Mac version".



They do have a physical office in LA - with great guys like Mark Thompson. I know this is not a hoax because I visited them before NAB to say thanks and drop off a hard drive full of Epic footage to help them test.



I suspect some of those folks might have been let go before Blackmagic bought them? Hope that some of the talented folks remain - Resolve has a damn fine foundation! I don't know, I wasn't tracking DaVinci with as much interest when it was out of my price bracket All I cared about DaVinci-wise then was what CO3's discount rates for a bay were at 3AM.

My impression is that the team on Resolve is growing - and doing a fantastic job right now.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

I'm sorry Bruce, but frankly pretty much all of your post is plain wrong. I'm not even going to try to correct you. Not trying to be disrespectable here, but you simply have no idea what you're talking about, because you just don't have the right information. One example, support. You are plain wrong. I'm talking about support for Linux Resolve. Before BM purchase, DaVinci, like all other high end software providers offered a yearly service contract. The moment DV was bought, it was discontinued and now it's pay per occurrence. Resolve an a Mac has NOTHING to do with this form of service!
The office in Van Nuys had been around for many years, before DaVinci was sold. Mark Thompson is a very good friend of mine, that I have a privilege of knowing for over 20 years.
I personally knew many of those talented engineers, who actually created Resolve and, no, they weren't let go before BM bought them. BM bought DV for their IP, moved the factory to Singapore and then they shuttered the company...

 

[Bruce Allen]

I'm sorry Bruce, but frankly pretty much all of your post is plain wrong. I'm not even going to try to correct you. Not trying to be disrespectable here, but you simply have no idea what you're talking about, because you just don't have the right information. One example, support. You are plain wrong. I'm talking about support for Linux Resolve. Before BM purchase, DaVinci, like all other high end software providers offered a yearly service contract. The moment DV was bought, it was discontinued and now it's pay per occurrence. Resolve an a Mac has NOTHING to do with this form of service!

Brad Allen said: "Jake said Resolve is a pay per occurrence deal. If they made a Windows version, users would pay for their support."

I said: "Support for Resolve on Mac is not on a pay per occurrence deal. It's awesome and free"

You said: "YOU'RE AN IDIOT, BRUCE - Resolve on Linux IS on a pay per occurrence deal."

I'm pretty sure Brad thought all versions of DaVinci required pay-per-occurrence support. Just wanted to point out that Mac support is not pay-per-occurrence and is awesome.

Cheers!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[jake blackstone]

You said: "YOU'RE AN IDIOT, BRUCE

I said that???
I just realized, that there are two different Allens

 

[Marc Wielage]

I doubt it

Pardon me -- just a typo. DaVinci 2K on Windows and Linux. DaVinci Resolve on Linux and Mac OSX. Same dif. It doesn't matter -- the only thing that's important is getting the job done and making the filmmaker happy; the operating system is the least of my considerations. I can't imagine trying to do a 3D 4K job on the Mac version, but doing regular network-delivery 1080p was fine on the Mac, even with 9-10 nodes, multiple tracking windows, the whole deal.

I agree that support for DaVinci (or Baselight or Lustre or anything else) is a major issue. Rich Montez and his associates with Whipping Post have done a terrific job for us in the LA area, and got us through some fairly involved set up issues. I can't recommend them more highly -- they really know their stuff very well. When it comes to mission-critical support, especially late at night or on weekends, they came through like gangbusters.

 

[Shane Betts]

I can't be too specific for obvious reasons But, yes, I'm talking about career DaVinci guys.
Remember, you're talking about a new Singapore and Ozzy company now. The old American company no longer exists. Florida and LA offices, which were the heart of the company are pretty much gone. What's to be happy about? Those factory engineers didn't relocate, their jobs did and majority were just let go...

Sounds reasonable Jake. This kind of thing happens to Australian companies all the time - generally at the hands of American companies ;-) - and it's heartbreaking watching the work go off-shore. Guess I've heard the other side from the other hemisphere. Needless to say it's a polarised perspective.

 

[M Most]

I'm not sure if it's intended but I feel like your being a little hostile Mike. I'm not trying to bicker or quarrel with you about anything. I'm simply trying to discuss ideas

I'm not arguing that BM should design resolve for Windows if it is not financially viable. The whole assumption of business endeavor is that it will be profitable. If a Windows version is not feasible financially then it's not worth even discussing.

Not hostile at all. Just honest in expressing a different perspective.

Yes, only if it is profitable. The reason I created this thread was to gauge if there were people who would want some of those seats.

Not knocking your intent, but RedUser - which has not only a limited audience, but one that has proven over time to be predominantly Mac-centric - is probably not the best place to conduct such a study. Besides - and once again, no knock on what you're trying to find out - I'm quite sure Blackmagic is constantly doing market research on these kinds of things based on their sales and inquiries, which represent a much larger world and many more markets that may not have the same needs as that of the people here. If they do decide to do another port, it won't be because some people on RedUser asked for it, it would be because their research tells them that such an effort can be profitable in the world market. At the price they've already established, as I said before, it's going to take a LOT of seats to make that the case, even if every one of those seats also included a DeckLink card. Only BM really knows how successful or unsuccessful the Mac product has been, and regardless of public statements, they're not likely to reveal those numbers to you or me or anyone else.

I probably should have clarified on this point. The advantage here is that I wouldn't have to think about networking if it was on Windows. For a freelance designer such as myself this is a fairly big incentive as it means I'm not concerned with centralized storage or moving 100's of Gb's of raw camera files around between workstations. I could edit and grade on the same workstation. I understand that this isn't a concern for bigger players, but it's still a pretty major incentive for smaller players like me.

Direct attached storage is possible on any computer, Mac, Windows, Linux, doesn't matter. Almost everything that's available on Windows in terms of editing, sound, and VFX is also available on the Mac, although the opposite is not true due to Apple's Mac-only policy for its own products. So if you're using Avid or Adobe products for what you're talking about, those are both available on the Mac and have crossgrade pricing available as well. The only difference is in the number of expansion slots available on the main board, but that is an issue that can be dealt with on the Mac side via expansion chassis, and, possibly in the future, via Thunderbold connected devices.

 

[Brad Allen]

Not knocking your intent, but RedUser - which has not only a limited audience, but one that has proven over time to be predominantly Mac-centric - is probably not the best place to conduct such a study. Besides - and once again, no knock on what you're trying to find out - I'm quite sure Blackmagic is constantly doing market research on these kinds of things based on their sales and inquiries, which represent a much larger world and many more markets that may not have the same needs as that of the people here. If they do decide to do another port, it won't be because some people on RedUser asked for it, it would be because their research tells them that such an effort can be profitable in the world market. At the price they've already established, as I said before, it's going to take a LOT of seats to make that the case, even if every one of those seats also included a DeckLink card. Only BM really knows how successful or unsuccessful the Mac product has been, and regardless of public statements, they're not likely to reveal those numbers to you or me or anyone else.

Absolutely agree with you here Mike. I didn't intend for the thread to be a convincing reason for BM to develop Resolve for PC, I just wanted it to be an extra voice in their existing market research. If I could have found a place to submit feedback or suggestions on their website, I would have done that. As it stands I couldn't so I figured a thread on here would at least be seen by someone from BM at some stage or other

Direct attached storage is possible on any computer, Mac, Windows, Linux, doesn't matter. Almost everything that's available on Windows in terms of editing, sound, and VFX is also available on the Mac, although the opposite is not true due to Apple's Mac-only policy for its own products. So if you're using Avid or Adobe products for what you're talking about, those are both available on the Mac and have crossgrade pricing available as well. The only difference is in the number of expansion slots available on the main board, but that is an issue that can be dealt with on the Mac side via expansion chassis, and, possibly in the future, via Thunderbold connected devices.

I understand what you are saying but there is still one archilies heel for me with attached storage - Fat32's 4gb file size limitation. Networking solves this problem, but I'm not in a position where I can set up a SAN or something similar. What's your current workflow when you need to get a 20gb file from Mac to PC (or vice' versa)?

 

[M Most]

I haven't used a FAT32 formatted drive in years, other than on USB sticks. And neither has anyone else that I know. The most common format in our business these days is the Mac HFS format, which works flawlessly on the Mac (no surprise there), but also has rather low latency drivers available for other platforms (nearly every PC I run into in a faciity already has MacDrive installed, for just that reason). NTFS is often used for direct attached storage on Windows based PCs, but I don't see it used much on shuttle drives. If you're on Linux, the Mac format is supported on most distros, but you can also use ext, xfs, or a number of other formats. SANs, of course, supply their own file systems for the most part, and most of those are cross platform as well.

 

[Brad Allen]

Ahh Good News.

I used MacDrive a couple of years back but found it so flaky and unreliable that I vowed never to use it again. Good to know things must have improved . I'll definitely keep this in mind for the future. Thanks

 

[Bruce Allen]

PC to Mac: plug in NTFS drive (it just works).

Since I'm usually finishing on a Mac (that's where my DaVinci is), I generally stay on the Mac.

But if I want to go back from Mac to NTFS with total reliability, I just fire up Windows though Parallels.

Then your NTFS drives appear in the Mac Finder as writable (file operations are piped through Parallels).

Other tools (MAC FUSE NTFS support, MacDrive) also work, but you don't need to use them.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Brad Allen]

Thanks for these other ideas and solutions Bruce. Seems finding a working solution between Mac and PC isn't quite as difficult as I anticpated. Still doesn't solve the disparity between GPU suport and hardware cost, but it is a path

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Need to bump this thread due to the release of Resolve Lite. I would also like to see a Windows version as I am about to build my own system (which I can't do with a Mac).
In this way I can choose the exact type of hardware I need. Doing this I will also be able to dance around the mac benchmarks with ease.
As I'm mostly working as an editor I have started to learn things about after effects and now I would like to start learning Resolve, even though I'm not new to grading.
Having all these on one system would be the best for me and while I can have it on a Mac, I really want my hardware, not Apple's.

Anyone claiming Mac is always superior to PC doesn't know anything about computers and setting up windows to be optimized for work with Avid, resolve, after effects makes it a much cheaper but in ways a much more powerful system. So I would really like to see a PC version, windows that is.

 

[Philipe Ratton]

Having so much freedom to choose hardware might be one of the reasons BM doesn't make a windows version.
I bet a lot of people would be calling BM, complaining about the software not working just to hear " this hardware of yours is not supported" over and over and over again.

 

[Kim Frank]

I'd say that's what System Requirements are there for.
I would love to see a windows version. I'm so happy about my custom built PC with 7 PCI Slots to hook up anything I need in a Rack Mount.
To be able to add Resolve to my Workstation would make more than happy.

 

[Philipe Ratton]

Yeh, but you know how people just want to do things their way and want others to make that happen for them and... actually, nevermind.