Resolve IPP2 colour managed issue... ?

[Michael Lindsay]

There are more than couple of niggles in Davinci Resolve when working with Red material... I completely accept this is not really anyones fault but rather a product of different approaches not marrying 100% as of yet...

BUT I'd love to be able to!

1) use Resolve Colour managed workflow for all my RED projects
2) not use a LUT to get to Rec709 or (but rather GN's maths in the form of 'IPP2 output mapping')

now this is possible until I introduce footage that is not Red raw... either Red VFX stuff or other camera rushes. Unfortunately the engaged IPP2 output mapping effects all the footage on the timeline...

is there a rational explanation for this and is it avoidable without going back to unmanaged or LUTS??

thank you!!

 

[paulcurtis]

IMHO i love the fact that the IPP2 processing is applied to all footage on the timeline. I find it easier to match and integrate footage this way - when it is sitting under the same contrast and rolloff curve.

It may depend on the camera though, so for example

cDNG flies work wonderfully - because they ignore the input space and are debayered into linear and so long as your raw settings are correct the IPP2 rolloff works wonderfully with them.

Any VFX work should be delivered back in RWG/LogG10. I do work in Nuke and at the end of the chain put it back to RWG/LogG10. Any viewing LUT i use to work with the footage is just for viewing - it doesn't get baked into the output files. So bring those QT VFX movies in and they work the same as the source RED files - you should be able to flip between before and after footage.

Any camera file like Slog2 from an A7sII works well so long as you right click on the footage and interpret it correctly, otherwise it would be read in as RWG and you don't want that. But IPP2 the end of the chain works well.

The key is that any other source needs to be interpreted correctly for Resolve to linearise it internally and therefore that final stage have the IPP2 work done on it. What it won't work so well with would be baked movie formats already into display space, like 709. But if you interpret those correctly I'm my limited experience with those files they work fine.

IPP2 has some nice contrast and desaturated roll offs - really helps with all footage.

cheers
Paul

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Thanks for responding...

IMHO i love the fact that the IPP2 processing is applied to all footage on the timeline. I find it easier to match and integrate footage this way - when it is sitting under the same contrast and rolloff curve.

If you have a master file (finished) cut in with new rushes this is disastrous... no?

Any VFX work should be delivered back in RWG/LogG10. I do work in Nuke and at the end of the chain put it back to RWG/LogG10. Any viewing LUT i use to work with the footage is just for viewing - it doesn't get baked into the output files. So bring those QT VFX movies in and they work the same as the source RED files - you should be able to flip between before and after footage.

ideally but this is not always controllable or possible... and when you bounce out some footage for a designer to do some quick motion GX this is very very unlikely...And what is just ridicules is asking the Designer to export GX from photoshop etc in RWG/LogG10

IPP2 has some nice contrast and desaturated roll offs - really helps with all footage.

I agree and it has been fine with some Arri stuff (even A7S was ok)... Phantom 4k was less appropriate but just about ok.

the bottom line is that is works when it does but sometimes doesn't (program masters etc, Gx from a designer etc... )....

It is seems it is a bit of a fudge to keep Red guys happy if you read the relevant sections in the latest manual... (there is a whole bit missing which in a manual this size suggests is because it is a fudge)

If all you do is hermetically sealled RED projects then it is fantastic (but then why even bother with colour managed) and it is fine for most mixed editorial rushes creation... other than that it feel like it is wrong or I am doing something wrong... ;-)

 

[paulcurtis]

Thanks for responding...
If you have a master file (finished) cut in with new rushes this is disastrous... no?

Yes, in that case that's not going to work. In which case you're better off adding the appropriate nodes as part of a shared node at the end of node tree i would think.

ideally but this is not always controllable or possible... and when you bounce out some footage for a designer to do some quick motion GX this is very very unlikely...And what is just ridicules is asking the Designer to export GX from photoshop etc in RWG/LogG10

If it's photoshop work then would it not be better to take the assets in (with alpha) and comp in Resolve? Interpret as sRGB and it should be okay - unless you're looking for super saturated RGB colours?

If all you do is hermetically sealled RED projects then it is fantastic (but then why even bother with colour managed) and it is fine for most mixed editorial rushes creation... other than that it feel like it is wrong or I am doing something wrong... ;-)

I don't know if it's a fudge or not - it's no different to an ACES workflow where the same ODT is used across all footage - you'd be in the same boat there if you have to work with footage that is display referenced.

cheers
Paul

 

[rand thompson]

Michael,



The Color managed settings you are using will give you different looking results.


Here is a File from Luigi Valtulini. First processed with the settings advised by Peter Chamberlain of Black Magic Designs. And , Your settings


High Con/ Very Soft used


Original

with a lut I made for this specific image for a REDWidegamutRGB/ Log3G10 image, with a curve to reduce overall brightness. This looks the same way as it did in a Non Color Managed REDWidegamutRGB/ Log3G10 project

Image with your settings along with the lut I made for this specific image for a REDWidegamutRGB/ Log3G10 image, with a curve to reduce overall brightness. It seems it didn't respect either the curve I used to reduce overall brightness or the Very Soft Highlight Roll-off

And if you are going to use Photoshop for your VFX work, why not make an IPP2 Output Transform Lut that transforms the REDWidegamutRGB/ Log3G10 image into Adobe 1998 and whatever gamma you need?

I know this all uses a Lut, but its probably what you will have to use atleast in a non Color- Managed project with specific Raw settings for the different camera material you will need.


But maybe I am misunderstanding what it is that you are asking.

 

[David Rasberry]

Have DI workflows been abandoned?

My normal workflow for mixed source footage in Resolve is to process each source on its own timeline for color managed base corrections and color space conversions, then export each corrected source independently to a master quality DI for editing and finishing. In my case I use Cineform since I’m on a PC. Final grades are done to the DI footage in a uniform project environment after editing.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Hey Rand

it is best to ignore how timeline colour space is set above as its naming can confuse... I sometimes set it to a log space depending on how I want the tools to work. it could actually be called Tools colour space (I'd prefer this). If you don't engage any tools it will not make any difference to the image no matter how it is set. I didn't realise this for about 2years ;-) and confusedly had it mirror input as I wrongly thought it would limit my footage if I didn't... If I get time later I will go through things more clearly as I think you got the wrong end of this particular stick... the frame grab I made was a little arbitary all I was really talking about was that the red specific output mapping contrast and rolloff curves created by Red are being applied to everything within this workflow... I had assumed that these had the precision of of maths rather than LUTs so I had wanted to use this approach over LUTs at the end. I think this assumption may be wrong but I will test.

thanks

 

[rand thompson]

Thanks Michael for the clarification, and like you said, I think I did get the wrong end of the stick. You know better than anyone else what works best for you and your needs.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Yes, in that case that's not going to work. In which case you're better off adding the appropriate nodes as part of a shared node at the end of node tree i would think.

Think you are right!

If it's photoshop work then would it not be better to take the assets in (with alpha) and comp in Resolve? Interpret as sRGB and it should be okay - unless you're looking for super saturated RGB colours?

That will work if I use a shared node output LUT approach but if I engage the output gamut mapping approach then loads of bright GX will get screwed around with...

I don't know if it's a fudge or not - it's no different to an ACES workflow where the same ODT is used across all footage - you'd be in the same boat there if you have to work with footage that is display referenced.

Thanks ... I haven't investigated ACES workflow and I have to admit my knowledge is limited to a tiny bit of the theoretical stuff nothing in practice..
I suppose I just don't understand why the Gamut and tone mapping Red controls in the colour management section don't just limit themselves to Red footage only... If they did things would make sense to me... but if those same mapping controls are not more precise than the LUTS Red provide then the shared node approach you suggest is actually ideal...


thanks

 

[rand thompson]

Micheal,


If you do use ACES the "Gamut Mapping" OFX tool can help a lot with Tone Mapping, especially with Red .R3D files

 

[Jon Dishler]

For whatever it is worth, when using FCP X I always get the exact same IMAGE (colors/contrast/rolloff) as processing in RCX and this matches closely to ProRes out of the camera, but I have never been able to get images to look the same in Resolve, no matter what settings I pick. I just tried this again recently, and quite frankly this is the main reason I have not moved to using Resolve. This is just doing the IPP2/log3G10 and settings to low contrast/soft. Maybe someone could post a comparison of images from RCX and Resolve with the settings to match?

 

[rand thompson]

John,



Here you go.


Redcine-X Settings

Preferences found under "Edit" at top left-hand corner of Redcine-X

Be sure to Enable "Show Advanced Controls" Under the "General" under "Preferences" So that you can use the IPP2 Settings below

Resolve Project Settings

Ignore the "Decoder Settings" Area, you can leave these settings as they are, They don't really do shit.

High Con/ Very Soft IPP2 Output Transform Lut Added as in Redcine-X

Redcine-X

Resolve

 

[Jon Dishler]

I see you added the LUT as a node but not from the settings menus which only produced your LOG starting point? It seems this should be able to be setup right from the decoder settings, which is what I was trying to do. Thanks!

 

[rand thompson]

Jon,


You could also pre-select an "Output Transform" Lut in the Project settings to automatically transform the RedwidegamutRGB/ Log3G10 image.


In the " Color Management" Table Under the "Lookup Tables" heading in "3D Output Lookup Table" select the IPP2 Output Transform Lut you want to use. Then you won't have to use nodes to apply the Output transform lut. However, you will be locked to that IPP2 transform for the entirety of your project. The Node based approach allows you to choose the best IPP2 transform to optimize your footage.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

For whatever it is worth, when using FCP X I always get the exact same IMAGE (colors/contrast/rolloff) as processing in RCX and this matches closely to ProRes out of the camera, but I have never been able to get images to look the same in Resolve, no matter what settings I pick. I just tried this again recently, and quite frankly this is the main reason I have not moved to using Resolve. This is just doing the IPP2/log3G10 and settings to low contrast/soft. Maybe someone could post a comparison of images from RCX and Resolve with the settings to match?

Hi Jon

Re Resolve output lining up with Redcine

There are quite few ways to do this but unfortunately 1000s of ways to mess up;-)

...can I suggest you open 1 clip in redcine and export a JPG/TIFF snapshot and a R3d snapshot... if you the create a fresh Davinci project and import them both in.. what do you see? they are identical for me!.. The RMD files will carry the meta data needed to interpret the r3d and the still image will have that meta data baked in.

Redcine is basically the Red SDK with a GUI. Resolve uses the Red SDK = they will produce identical results if no further tools are engaged.

Now what gets tricky is that people can badly set stuff up and them ofset the result of what is incorrect process within their grades and get away with it... now if it works that is fine but soon as it doesn't things get annoying!

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Have DI workflows been abandoned?

My normal workflow for mixed source footage in Resolve is to process each source on its own timeline for color managed base corrections and color space conversions, then export each corrected source independently to a master quality DI for editing and finishing. In my case I use Cineform since I’m on a PC. Final grades are done to the DI footage in a uniform project environment after editing.

Sorry I missed this..

No we are normaly fine as the finally assembly is not done in Resolve and by then we are firmly in Rec 709 with al footgae prepared with a Gamma asumption of 2.4. I have however been looking to HDR and need to be able to move between different tone mappings so figured Resolve may be where we finish completely.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

it is interesting that nobodies workflow seems bothered by this.

Just so I am clear: if I have a RCM project with IPP2 output mapping engaged 'any' GX or Line up chart will be 'wrong'! There is no way to interpret this footage so that it is rendered correctly. Is this not odd?

 

[paulcurtis]

it is interesting that nobodies workflow seems bothered by this.

Just so I am clear: if I have a RCM project with IPP2 output mapping engaged 'any' GX or Line up chart will be 'wrong'! There is no way to interpret this footage so that it is rendered correctly. Is this not odd?

As i mentioned earlier, if you were running under ACES i think you'd have the same issues and ACES is a pretty standard workflow for lots of people.

I guess the question has to be what is the project you've got and the issues. As i thought, you had what was a 'finished' project and need to make changes - so because the project is 'finished' it has all the output mapping baked in?

I don't think it's that unusual to operate under one final output map

What's a GX chart (colour calibration?)

cheers
Paul

 

[Michael Lindsay]

As i mentioned earlier, if you were running under ACES i think you'd have the same issues and ACES is a pretty standard workflow for lots of people.

sorry Paul I do belive you but I haven't got around to testing... I will try and do this over the weekend...

I guess the question has to be what is the project you've got and the issues. As i thought, you had what was a 'finished' project and need to make changes - so because the project is 'finished' it has all the output mapping baked in?

I don't think it's that unusual to operate under one final output map

of course this makes sense... how do you even composite 2 clips on a timeline if they have 2 differnt output maps applied?

I don't really have a pressing project issue to solve... but what I am always trying to do is find A) greater Elagancy, Speed, self sufficancy but with clarity and easy communicability of workflow! B) also increase quality ... C) look to the future (HDR is pressing)

In the simple senario of using Resolve as our gradeing aplication (what we normally do) we don't really have an issue but we are playing with the idea of doing more editing/finishing within it and this is where I see this issue..

If I going to use Resolve as a more genral purpose mixed use tool it is becuase I am trying to save time by concertinaing direct work with R3d files and other assets and the higest quality (maths not LUTS) aproach seems not avaible in this scenario.. also I can't believe guys using Resolve to work with Komodo rushes in 2 months time will have the training to really get their heads around RCM and best approach Red rushes exploitation...

What's a GX chart (colour calibration?)

Sorry I was vague... any colour or contrast line up chart (SMPTE etc)... for example I have a home made chart (I made in fusion years ago) that I stick on the front of sign off material that forces the viewer to check that black and white is where it is suposed to be on their viewing device... I currently have to use a double export to inc this..

thanks for taking my post seriosily it is helpful dialogue...

 

[Jon Dishler]

Jon,


You could also pre-select an "Output Transform" Lut in the Project settings to automatically transform the RedwidegamutRGB/ Log3G10 image.


In the " Color Management" Table Under the "Lookup Tables" heading in "3D Output Lookup Table" select the IPP2 Output Transform Lut you want to use. Then you won't have to use nodes to apply the Output transform lut. However, you will be locked to that IPP2 transform for the entirety of your project. The Node based approach allows you to choose the best IPP2 transform to optimize your footage.

Thanks for your help Rand, that is exactly what I needed!
Jon