ReSale Prices

[Stephen Williams]

Understood, so for epic M dragon that would be 17.5k USD, I dont find too many brains for that price, and I forgot what the trade in vlaue was for epic X dragon but it was less still no cameras around for that price... and to me given the price for a new dragon X body, the used price for a 4 year old camera, even though it gone trough a dragon upgrade and so on should possibly sell for less but no, So with all that said where is this huge price drop everyone is talking about?

Compare it to computers, how much of original price do you out when you try to sell your 4 year old computer? Lets say a mac pro? I think less than half normally even if you swapped the graphics card and filled it up with extra ram, and these cameras are much more specialized tools, normally such fall in value even quicker. So compare them to SGI computers or such, they go from a couple of 100k USD new and 4 years later you pay to have them picked up as trash... just as a comparison.

Epic M body cost $43,500 4 years ago plus Dragon Upgrade $9,500 makes $53,000 so roughly 67% depreciation if traded in. People buying more recently have had a better deal but complain the loudest. Depreciation of less than 1k a month seems quite reasonable to me, these cameras are intended to be used professionally.

 

[Alex Doctor]

At the end of the day, no one can take offence to 'low ball' offers as everyone would love to get a deal if they can.
The camera is worth only what you are willing to let it part for.
I might be wrong but I feel a lot of people buy red cameras and instantly regret the decision as it's a different way of shooting, lighting and working in post. It's daunting to a lot of new comers, it was to me at the start and there were moments I wondered if I'd made the right decision, my alternative option was an F5 of which I had plenty experience.
I see a lot of red cameras here and on eBay with only 10-20 hours use. I know I'm drawing conclusions, but I would say it's a buyers regret moment and therefore offloading at any cost lowering everyone else resale value.
I bought my camera to use it. I've only had it 6 months and racked up 60 hours and I'm sure there are plenty of people that shoot a hell of a lot more than that.

 

[Andrey Blanco]

I don't think this is the case maybe for a few but for any proffesional that took pictures with DSLR RAW know excatly what was the potencial of Red video raw. Red camera produce beutifull images and not a lot need to be learned.

I think what really acelerate depreciation the last few weeks was the unsexy weapon trade-in program. What is the point of a trade in program if before was possible to get more money from the camera than the trade in valu? This was a mistake that really hurted current owner, seller and pottencial buyers willing to invest in the red eco system. I'm sure red is or pretty soon will feel the consequences.

they could had done one of these two things:
1) said that the weapon was more expensive of what actually is so the trade in price is higher. So when the camera was fully avaiilable drop the price or offer a cheaper version (for example aluminium)

2) offer a trade-in option for weapon brain only without the wrongly called freebies or $5,000 credit and put that money towards the camera trade-in value. Let's say for $9,000 people can upgrade to weapon body from Epic-M (this way trade-in value would be more close to actual prices ) . at the end people is always forced to buy some of the weapon accessories to make the camera work properly.

I think something is wromg the way weapon trade-in is marketed (maybe is not a bad deal but doesn't look right) In the past red trade-in always been a non-brainer and very simple to understand (without charts or lot of excuses) this time looks Like a Best Buy trade-in, at the end this hurt everybody

I might be wrong but I feel a lot of people buy red cameras and instantly regret the decision as it's a different way of shooting, lighting and working in post. It's daunting to a lot of new comers, it was to me at the start and there were moments I wondered if I'd made the right decision, my alternative option was an F5 of which I had plenty experience.
I see a lot of red cameras here and on eBay with only 10-20 hours use. I know I'm drawing conclusions, but I would say it's a buyers regret moment and therefore offloading at any cost lowering everyone else resale value.

 

[Zack Birlew]

With RED, things can always change. With WEAPON, it's a new branch of products essentially. You have the S35/cropped cameras and then you have the full frame line. I don't doubt that there will be a SCARLET WEAPON somewhere down the road as the aesthetic for S35 is much different than FF35 as well as lens options. From WEAPON we'll be heading towards Medium and Large Formats and those will most likely have their own upgrade paths that branch off from each other as well. I don't know if RED would simply stop making S35 cameras down the line and instead opt for physical or digital in-camera cropping but for now it's best to look at the WEAPON "upgrade" as more of a "crossgrade". Looking at it that way, it's a little easier to see why resale prices have been so erratic as of late. Some worry about losing additional value with another BT sale, others have enough RED accessories to find the trade-in store credit a potential financial loss in the long run (especially since we don't know what will and what won't be compatible yet), and then there are those that simply want to go to other competing camera systems.

I myself would love to get on the WEAPON bandwagon as I've been focused on full frame since the beginning with the release of the Nikon D90 showing me the strengths of full frame Nikon lenses that also allowed for future use on my eventual Canon 5D Mark II. Being a new buyer, the WEAPON would actually appeal more to me than getting an EPIC or SCARLET and building up from there, especially now that there are new financing options thanks to the partnership with Abelcine. However, having been one of the earliest fans and supporters of RED, I simply haven't had the money or practical reason to invest in a personal RED camera system (although I did get close but decided that getting my Masters in Film School was more important). Now though, the used market is essentially on fire and there's all kinds of deals to be had. At NAB, Samy's Camera in particular had a $9,000 fully decked out SCARLET MX kit that was incredibly tempting and some other camera stores since then have had full EPIC MX packages for about the same price as the body alone. Just the other day I looked and there are base EPIC MX's in the marketplace and other sites going for around $15,500 or so. The only thing I've ever worried about with resales are the ownership transfer fee and any possible repair fees so, for me, a used RED has to either have a full recent checkup or account for the cost of ownership transfer, otherwise I'm not buying. I know I'm not alone in this line of thought and that is another example of how there are simply more options these days to get a RED camera and, in my opinion, the days of RED owners getting exactly what they paid for or even minus twenty percent for their cameras on the marketplace are gone. Many people have said getting a RED camera is like getting a car, although they meant purchase price at the time, now it's even more true with regards to resale value.

P.S. It's funny that this is my 634th post since that was my original RED One reservation number. Funny how much time has passed and how much RED has changed since then! Also, I'm at the point of looking at getting a RED camera once again! Funny how life works. ^_^

 

[Alex Doctor]

I understand where you're coming from, I'm just always perplexed by the cameras that come up for sale with less than 20 hours use. This was happening before weapon was even hinted at. I'm just wondering why someone would invest so much and use it so little.

I don't think this is the case maybe for a few but for any proffesional that took pictures with DSLR RAW know excatly what was the potencial of Red video raw. Red camera produce beutifull images and not a lot need to be learned.

I think what really acelerate depreciation the last few weeks was the unsexy weapon trade-in program. What is the point of a trade in program if before was possible to get more money from the camera than the trade in valu? This was a mistake that really hurted current owner, seller and pottencial buyers willing to invest in the red eco system. I'm sure red is or pretty soon will feel the consequences.

they could had done one of these two things:
1) said that the weapon was more expensive of what actually is so the trade in price is higher. So when the camera was fully avaiilable drop the price or offer a cheaper version (for example aluminium)

2) offer a trade-in option for weapon brain only without the wrongly called freebies or $5,000 credit and put that money towards the camera trade-in value. Let's say for $9,000 people can upgrade to weapon body from Epic-M (this way trade-in value would be more close to actual prices ) . at the end people is always forced to buy some of the weapon accessories to make the camera work properly.

I think something is wromg the way weapon trade-in is marketed (maybe is not a bad deal but doesn't look right) In the past red trade-in always been a non-brainer and very simple to understand (without charts or lot of excuses) this time looks Like a Best Buy trade-in, at the end this hurt everybody

 

[Elsie N]

With RED, things can always change. With WEAPON, it's a new branch of products essentially. You have the S35/cropped cameras and then you have the full frame line. I don't doubt that there will be a SCARLET WEAPON somewhere down the road as the aesthetic for S35 is much different than FF35 as well as lens options. From WEAPON we'll be heading towards Medium and Large Formats and those will most likely have their own upgrade paths that branch off from each other as well. I don't know if RED would simply stop making S35 cameras down the line and instead opt for physical or digital in-camera cropping but for now it's best to look at the WEAPON "upgrade" as more of a "crossgrade". Looking at it that way, it's a little easier to see why resale prices have been so erratic as of late. Some worry about losing additional value with another BT sale, others have enough RED accessories to find the trade-in store credit a potential financial loss in the long run (especially since we don't know what will and what won't be compatible yet), and then there are those that simply want to go to other competing camera systems.

I myself would love to get on the WEAPON bandwagon as I've been focused on full frame since the beginning with the release of the Nikon D90 showing me the strengths of full frame Nikon lenses that also allowed for future use on my eventual Canon 5D Mark II. Being a new buyer, the WEAPON would actually appeal more to me than getting an EPIC or SCARLET and building up from there, especially now that there are new financing options thanks to the partnership with Abelcine. However, having been one of the earliest fans and supporters of RED, I simply haven't had the money or practical reason to invest in a personal RED camera system (although I did get close but decided that getting my Masters in Film School was more important). Now though, the used market is essentially on fire and there's all kinds of deals to be had. At NAB, Samy's Camera in particular had a $9,000 fully decked out SCARLET MX kit that was incredibly tempting and some other camera stores since then have had full EPIC MX packages for about the same price as the body alone. Just the other day I looked and there are base EPIC MX's in the marketplace and other sites going for around $15,500 or so. The only thing I've ever worried about with resales are the ownership transfer fee and any possible repair fees so, for me, a used RED has to either have a full recent checkup or account for the cost of ownership transfer, otherwise I'm not buying. I know I'm not alone in this line of thought and that is another example of how there are simply more options these days to get a RED camera and, in my opinion, the days of RED owners getting exactly what they paid for or even minus twenty percent for their cameras on the marketplace are gone. Many people have said getting a RED camera is like getting a car, although they meant purchase price at the time, now it's even more true with regards to resale value.

P.S. It's funny that this is my 634th post since that was my original RED One reservation number. Funny how much time has passed and how much RED has changed since then! Also, I'm at the point of looking at getting a RED camera once again! Funny how life works. ^_^

Zack, consider getting a seller to send in a log file to determine if any red flags pop up. Probably not as thorough as a full evaluation, but could give a buyer a measure of peace of mind.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Zack, consider getting a seller to send in a log file to determine if any red flags pop up. Probably not as thorough as a full evaluation, but could give a buyer a measure of peace of mind.

I thought a tech check-up was the whole purpose of a Red sanctioned ownership transfer. It is what the fee is for, no? If this is the case, why bother with a camera log?

 

[Elsie N]

I thought a tech check-up was the whole purpose of a Red sanctioned ownership transfer. It is what the fee is for, no? If this is the case, why bother with a camera log?

No, the evaluation fee is somewhat reasonable, but the shipping to and from are killer. The transfer fee is pretty steep.

 

[Arnold F.]

I definitely take offense at lowball offers. That everyone wants a good deal is a given and not an excuse for poor dealings. I always want a good deal but it would never, ever occur to me to offer someone half of what is already a reasonable price. I have been dealing with lowballers making offers on a variety of things I'm selling, not just my camera. I wonder, and this may be silly, if it's a millennial thing because there appears to be a sense of entitlement I don't remember dealing with in years past. It's as if they feel I owe them something or they don't fully understand the concept of ownership. It's really putting the whole "occupy" thing in context.

I had a 2nd Scarlet and this guy, Kheraj something (I don't remember his name exactly and had to block him) had a Category 5 hissy fit because I wouldn't sell it to him for the price he wanted. He said I shouldn't be allowed to own a RED, that I was a "scalper," and even implied that RED cameras were some magical thing that should never be sold and only special people should be allowed to own them. I started to wonder if it was a very dry, elaborate joke or if he was genuinely insane or unstable. He really seemed to feel that I had "his" camera and that profanity and being bat shit crazy would somehow make it so. I had another guy 3 days ago refer to the camera I'm currently selling as his, even though he expressed mild interest and never made an offer.

So even apart from disappointingly low resale, which I can understand, it's now a very strange environment. Do these people contact RED directly and make the same lowball offers on new gear and, if not, why not?

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

That's actually a good sign- a lot of very loyal- albeit delusional fans (fanatic-> fan)
This is every business dream Arnold...;-)

 

[Mark Phelan]

I definitely take offense at lowball offers. That everyone wants a good deal is a given and not an excuse for poor dealings. I always want a good deal but it would never, ever occur to me to offer someone half of what is already a reasonable price. I have been dealing with lowballers making offers on a variety of things I'm selling, not just my camera. I wonder, and this may be silly, if it's a millennial thing because there appears to be a sense of entitlement I don't remember dealing with in years past. It's as if they feel I owe them something or they don't fully understand the concept of ownership. It's really putting the whole "occupy" thing in context.

I had a 2nd Scarlet and this guy, Kheraj something (I don't remember his name exactly and had to block him) had a Category 5 hissy fit because I wouldn't sell it to him for the price he wanted. He said I shouldn't be allowed to own a RED, that I was a "scalper," and even implied that RED cameras were some magical thing that should never be sold and only special people should be allowed to own them. I started to wonder if it was a very dry, elaborate joke or if he was genuinely insane or unstable. He really seemed to feel that I had "his" camera and that profanity and being bat shit crazy would somehow make it so. I had another guy 3 days ago refer to the camera I'm currently selling as his, even though he expressed mild interest and never made an offer.

So even apart from disappointingly low resale, which I can understand, it's now a very strange environment. Do these people contact RED directly and make the same lowball offers on new gear and, if not, why not?

Yes, some people will make nonsense offers, like the guy who asked for it for free this morning. Then last week, there was the guy who offered the asking price to a half dozen folks, who was not a serious buyer, he's since been banned. A lot of swindlers and thieves in this world and there is something about cameras that brings them out of the woodwork, starting with the very first Epic sold.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

The question is how much do you write your camera/investment off per year?

Pat

 

[Scott Crawley]

That's actually a good sign- a lot of very loyal- albeit delusional fans (fanatic-> fan)
This is every business dream Arnold...;-)

I'm not sure if I should read Jacek's tone as cheeky, serious or somewhere in between but I happen to agree fully.

Take the offer and the pressure that accompanies it as signs of the petitioner's desire for what you have. That is one third of the bigger picture. The rest is how much they can afford to pay you and how little you are willing to accept.

If the first two pieces don't fit together the offer is not real. If they don't fit with your piece there is no deal to be made.

Their insistence can be annoying but I consider it a gift. It is the gift of leverage. ;-)

 

[Elsie N]

I've made low-ball offers before. Usually I apologize in advance by saying I don't really have to have the item but still, would buy it at the price offered. I end by saying that they should use my offer as a floor price offer to think about if no one offers more.

 

[Eric Santiago]

I've made low-ball offers before. Usually I apologize in advance by saying I don't really have to have the item but still, would buy it at the price offered. I end by saying that they should use my offer as a floor price offer to think about if no one offers more.

Im in Canada and I try to offset the dollar diff.

It kills me to have to ask but I do it all the time

 

[Arnold F.]

Ha..I suppose, but I'm not sure how good it is to have a product your "fans" believe they deserve for free so they can create their "art." In some ways the technological democratization has been both the best and the worst thing to happen to the business.

That's actually a good sign- a lot of very loyal- albeit delusional fans (fanatic-> fan)
This is every business dream Arnold...;-)

 

[Arnold F.]

Their desire for my (or anyone's) camera can be quantified with great accuracy - down to the dollar. And when they offer $3000 for a $6000 item I have no leverage because they never intend to come close to the asking price - they're not genuinely interested in purchasing. That's the point - when you offer half of an already decent asking price you're proving from your first communication that you DON'T want the item, not that you do.

I'm not sure if I should read Jacek's tone as cheeky, serious or somewhere in between but I happen to agree fully.

Take the offer and the pressure that accompanies it as signs of the petitioner's desire for what you have. That is one third of the bigger picture. The rest is how much they can afford to pay you and how little you are willing to accept.

If the first two pieces don't fit together the offer is not real. If they don't fit with your piece there is no deal to be made.

Their insistence can be annoying but I consider it a gift. It is the gift of leverage. ;-)

 

[Mark Toia]

Cameras are worth what people want to offer and what sellers want to accept.
Simple as that.

People that have made great returns on there gear or people that are doing it a bit tough will dump the prices to get out and move on.
It's the middle market where people haven't really got what they wanted from their investment and want to get out with minimal loss by trying to sell there kits for little less than new.
They are dreamers.

Someone tell me of any massed produced camera that holds its money .
Nothing ? ....
Dont say the Alexa. I can buy 50 of them tomorrow for 1/4 what people paid.
Ive got a cupboard full of cameras that cost a bomb and I couldn't give away. Why are Red cameras supposed to be different than any other camera ? Are they made of gold ? Nope. They are made of the same stuff as every other camera.

Don't forget you can right gear off on tax over time. You can rent them out for 500 bucks a day if your hard up and pay the kit off in 80 rental days. Shoot tourism jobs and bill the camera to your production. As we do.

You can make a shit load of money off cameras if you work them hard. Mine have all been paid off about 5x over.... and quite honestly I would sell them for what every can get when I come to selling them. But I doupt I'll sell them for another couple of years at least Because they deliver more than I need and nothing has come out that has blown me away to want to leave what I have. Including the 6k Weapon. 8k maybe.

People need to take a reality pill.

 

[Eric Santiago]

Agreed Mark.

We have a ton of XDCAM, BetaSP and DVCAM gear here that is basically worthless.

Cant sell and cant even donate them since we tried and no one wants them.

Im in Government (day job) so they cant be sold to public.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Ha..I suppose, but I'm not sure how good it is to have a product your "fans" believe they deserve for free so they can create their "art." In some ways the technological democratization has been both the best and the worst thing to happen to the business.

Arnold,
The most important part of the sale is done for you. They really want your camera. They don't have enough money right now. But guess what's the first thing they spend the money on once they get some ;-)
And they will beg, borrow and steal for the object of their desire hahaha...
This society is the seller's Eldorado .....
You've got to thank RED for that- that's CUSTOMER SERVICE