Request: Please make SSD the default module

[Mike Gross]

Yeah, it is like saying you upgraded from the chevette to the corvette for $10k and you're pissed that the racing brakes and tires didn't come stock with the car.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

They've already given you an incredible deal with the upgrade program and somehow they're screwing you by giving you what they promised which was a CF module. I don't have an early camera do the upgrade and I'd happily take the generous upgrade with the CF because I can use all the CF cards I already own.

In fact I think Red should take away your upgrades for bitching about the free stuff they're giving you. Starting with Shawn

Your last smily face makes it hard to know whether you are serious at all. First, no one is bitching. This is called positive customer feedback (nearly everyone on this thread is derided as "kool aid drinking fan boys" elsewhere, so if I get that other places then get called "bitching" over here, then I'm going to start flaming.

It seems like you just decided to shit on this thread without reading the full context. Back when Red announced Epic (like 2+ years ago) CF made sense. On the last big announcement of Epic (almost a full year ago) CF was still viable. Now that Red has changed course, I'm merely letting them know that as a paying customer (news alert, Im not getting a free Epic), that I would LIKE Epic's default config to reflect the company's new direction with media (since they EOL'd several things, see the opening post). Judging by almost everyone's post, a lot of people strongly agree with me. Who knows, maybe Red already did what we've asked (it'd make sense, it's the most obvious thing to do) and this entire thread is irrelevant. Notice there's been no reply from Red other than a short and hard-to-decipher one-liner from Deanan.

Now I did post and continue to post in a humble and open spirit, so if my questions are incorrectly based, then I welcome an official response to set the record straight. If 64gb Red cards are still coming, and can do HDRx™ and 5k 120fps, then maybe a default SSD isnt needed at all.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Yeah, it is like saying you upgraded from the chevette to the corvette for $10k and you're pissed that the racing brakes and tires didn't come stock with the car.

Not you too Mike, you're a cool dude, and that's a horribly mocking analogy that fails on every.last.point. and does nothing to elevate the conversation to useful commentary.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

alright, whatever. I'm just politely creating commentary, summarizing what i've heard, engaging in something besides useless speculation. Red knows I'm not "bitching" and that I'm about as pro-Red as it gets (and I actually own a Red and have given Red an obscene amount of money, I own almost everything Red has ever made). So I welcome more people to chime in on a technical level why they agree with my OP or why they disagree. I also hope Red will announce why these comments are good, unfounded or not feasible or whatever. Lastly, I hope Red isn't upset by this thread and appreciates customers politely engaging them on these boards, as has been the tradition for years now. Cheers.

 

[Mike Gross]

Just sayin... The tone of the thread does sound like previous threads which are all gimme gimme gimme. Of course I'd love the SSD for free but I'm not expecting it. I'd like a Pro I/O module as default also and the shoulder mount too and batteries and a rocket and a mac pro. Hell, gimme a 2nd AC too because the RPPs don't come with autofocus

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Mike, cost (or lack thereof) was never brought up by me. That'd be up to Red, I made a technical request.

Twitter to the rescue!! Michael Schmidt on Twitter posted this recent video of Ted seeming to say Red is going to do what this thread requests!!!
http://www.vimeo.com/15112636 go to the 00:43 to hear

 

[Kevin Wild]

I'm with you, Shawn. I hope RED does re-look at some of these deals. I don't get the negative responses at all. With RED always changing everything, these pricing packages and the packages themselves have to stay fairly liquid, too...especially with all that happens between the announcement and delivery.

So, I'm all for an Epic that doesn't have things that I'll immediately take off and put on a shelf to collect dust the very day I buy it. If you're delivering "latest & greatest" technology, than let it be that. SSD module makes much more sense to bundle. Even if it's a little more, that's fine. I just don't want to be shipped something that I don't even need.

Which brings up another old point about the non-Pro audio module. I believe that was the same deal and I'm not sure it was totally resolved. If everyone is ordering the Pro Audio module, let's not waste the materials, cost, shipping, etc. if 99% of the buyers get the higher end one.

I think RED usually does things VERY intelligently and does listen, so I think feedback like this is useful to them. Hopefully they listen...I don't want CF nor do I want the non-pro audio module!

 

[Shawn Nelson]

I'm with you, Shawn. I hope RED does re-look at some of these deals. I don't get the negative responses at all. With RED always changing everything, these pricing packages and the packages themselves have to stay fairly liquid, too...especially with all that happens between the announcement and delivery.

So, I'm all for an Epic that doesn't have things that I'll immediately take off and put on a shelf to collect dust the very day I buy it. If you're delivering "latest & greatest" technology, than let it be that. SSD module makes much more sense to bundle. Even if it's a little more, that's fine. I just don't want to be shipped something that I don't even need.

Which brings up another old point about the non-Pro audio module. I believe that was the same deal and I'm not sure it was totally resolved. If everyone is ordering the Pro Audio module, let's not waste the materials, cost, shipping, etc. if 99% of the buyers get the higher end one.

I think RED usually does things VERY intelligently and does listen, so I think feedback like this is useful to them. Hopefully they listen...I don't want CF nor do I want the non-pro audio module!

Thanks Kevin! Glad to see a post that doesnt involve a few barbs

Good point on the non-pro audio module. Epic, by design, is a pro camera. So why are there ANY non-pro modules? How useful would they be? Maybe I'm missing something. Jim did say that we can just pay some unknown 'upgrade' fee to get the pro module, thats what I intend to do.

As for pricing, I'd like to point out that Red hasn't announced any pricing since Nov 2009, so I fully expect a final shakeup prior to shipping (remember, Jim said to expect changes), the world has changed. Maybe certain things went up, maybe some things are cheaper, maybe everything is cheaper, hard to say. We'll see.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Just sayin... The tone of the thread does sound like previous threads which are all gimme gimme gimme. Of course I'd love the SSD for free but I'm not expecting it. I'd like a Pro I/O module as default also and the shoulder mount too and batteries and a rocket and a mac pro. Hell, gimme a 2nd AC too because the RPPs don't come with autofocus

To be clear, I'm not asking for it for free, I'm with shawn (Edit: and Kevin) and asking that they make it the default so it could be like say $300-500 more - doesn't need to be $2500 or whatever - since it will be probably very little hard cost over the CF version and they can amortize whatever R&D over ALL of the Epics and not have us spend ANOTHER $2500 or more and have a useless side CF module.

And further, I really want it to be a replacement for the side CF, with the viewfinder and start buttons, etc. - so we can keep it as small as possible rather than having to stack another module on and keep the original side CF.

I don't think I've ever done an all caps before, but I think this is extremely important so let me restate:

I'M NOT ASKING FOR FREE, I'M ASKING FOR THEM TO DO THE SENSIBLE THING GIVEN THAT IT WILL BE A YEAR OR MORE PAST INITIAL TIMING AND THE CURRENT STATE OF TECHNOLOGY HAS CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY AND THE MOST COST EFFECTIVE METHOD AS WELL AS BEST TECHNOLOGY IS TO MAKE SSD THE DEFAULT AND CHARGE AS LITTLE AS THEY THINK THEY CAN FOR THE UPGRADE TO APPEASE THOSE (NOT ME) THAT MIGHT FEEL THEY WERE BEING UPSOLD.

Edit: The only people that can really have a gripe are those that did stage2 so already gave a deposit (like me) and I don't think those are the type that are right on the edge of this financially, so won't mind some upcharge. Again, the upcharge I will mind is being stuck with an expensive (essentially obsolete) side CF and then having to buy the SSD module.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

To be clear, I'm not asking for it for free, I'm with shawn (Edit: and Kevin) and asking that they make it the default so it could be like say $300-500 more - doesn't need to be $2500 or whatever - since it will be probably very little hard cost over the CF version and they can amortize whatever R&D over ALL of the Epics and not have us spend ANOTHER $2500 and have a useless side CF module.

I'm with you too, Michael. I'm sure there will be a price premium, and I'm sure we haven't seen all the pricing details for Epic yet anyway. I want to believe that the majority of Stage-2 customers are going to want the side SSD module rather than the CF module and will also want the Pro I/O module rather than the basic one that is to be included in the kit.

It has been 11 months since the big Epic stages announcement and nearly 6 months since Stage-2 notifications went out and deposits were collected. I'm sure plenty has changed since then. Things we know that have changed since then, that will definitely impact Epic's production and pricing, have already come to light. Such as Epic being produced 100% here in the USA. Perhaps the pricing on the SSD module isn't that out of line and the $500 side CF module no longer applies, but yet is still going to offer it as part of the kits because that's what they originally quoted... Anyway, that all falls into the realm of wild speculation. But something tells me that no matter how all the pricing details work out, Stage-2 and Stage-3 customers are going to get the deal of a lifetime and I'm betting that Stage-4, open market, customers will not only be buying the Epic without the included modules, but could very well be paying a higher entry price too. Once again, all speculation...

 

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

I agree with mr Hastings. I am absolutely willing to pay extra for the SSD sidemodule, but
$2500 seems a bit high, unless we are paying the penalty of 2500 pieces of CF modules all ready produced?
Through my lens it is not very Jim Jannard-like to pass on these kind of R&D expenses to the costumers as we go?
To me Jim seems like a true american businessmann, but one with a an overwhelming passion for our craft and our machines.
This is obviously just pure guesswork from my side...Lets see what happens..

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The R&D was just speculative as it pertains to costs. Obviously there is R&D here and those costs have to be recovered somewhere. However, that is only one component to the overall pricing strategy. I guess that what I have been trying to say is I doubt the $2500 is price-gouging the customer or out of line in any way. I'm sure there is a logical reason for the price in contrast to the side CF module originally being quoted as $500.

Looking back on things, I can see a lot of possibilities here, but for now I'm done speculating. I'm going to wait and see how it all unfolds. RED has always treated their customers fairly and I don't see any reason for that to change with an SSD module.

As for SSD being a default option or a standard package option, I fully expect that to happen. After all, the RED team has been shooting with SSDs for a couple months now. It's the only way, at this time, to utilize Epic's full capabilities.

 

[Raphael Varandas]

100% agreed... with you guys.

 

[Kevin Wild]

I'm getting "greener" as I grow older and it pains me to think of the associated environmental waste that would result from sending out hundreds or thousands of hunks of metal that are just being set aside due to a dated "default package" deal. Hopefully that doesn't happen.

 

[David Battistella]

In Shawn's defense.

From what I have read here, Shawn is a very early adopter of the RED system. He is also not a rental house, a major corporation, or spending someone elses' money.

So if Shawn expresses a concern that could affect the bottom lines, he really is looking out for himself as a customer and there is nothing wrong with that.

Many want to jump to RED's defense or claim Shawn is whining. I don't think RED is exactly hurting as a company or getting ready to shut their doors. They have been fair, given away a lot of freebies, but where would they be without a loyal customer base.

RED's relationship with the customer is very much classic parent child. (RED being the parent). Many of these threads seem like this is like asking dad for the keys to the car on Friday night, and that is how things are, reduser is one of the best lines of communication to "dad".

So it really ain't Shawn being a fanboy.

David

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

Very interesting turn of directions, it seems it is a no win situation either -

1. You praise Red for all they do and bring up no counter points, and then get labeled a fanboy. (Which is not helpful, as even a company as great as Red is not perfect.)

or

2. You bring up a valid concern, comment, critique, and you get labeled as a whiner, complainer, etc. (Which is not helpful either ...)

Never did I say give me something for free- nor do I think that is what Shawn is saying. I'm fine with paying some kind of cost- however, an $2,500 added cost seems exorbitant to me ... any way, I agree with what Michael says here:

I'M NOT ASKING FOR FREE, I'M ASKING FOR THEM TO DO THE SENSIBLE THING GIVEN THAT IT WILL BE A YEAR OR MORE PAST INITIAL TIMING AND THE CURRENT STATE OF TECHNOLOGY HAS CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY AND THE MOST COST EFFECTIVE METHOD AS WELL AS BEST TECHNOLOGY IS TO MAKE SSD THE DEFAULT AND CHARGE AS LITTLE AS THEY THINK THEY CAN FOR THE UPGRADE TO APPEASE THOSE (NOT ME) THAT MIGHT FEEL THEY WERE BEING UPSOLD.

Edit: The only people that can really have a gripe are those that did stage2 so already gave a deposit (like me) and I don't think those are the type that are right on the edge of this financially, so won't mind some upcharge. Again, the upcharge I will mind is being stuck with an expensive (essentially obsolete) side CF and then having to buy the SSD module.

 

[Antony M]

As I see it, the only reason to not buy the SSD option with Epic would be if your budget was too restricted to allow for it.

That is certainly one reason. And that is the camp I am in.

Anyone buying Epic is going to want the ability to record on SSDs -- otherwise they can't really use the camera, IMO.

Anyone? Please don't generalise. There is far too much of that on this forum already

I am buying an Epic (paid deposit ages ago), but I will NOT be recording on SSDs. At least not for the immediate future.

 

[Elsie N]

@Antony

I don't think anyone is suggesting that shooting on CF is not an option... just that the SSD should be the default since most will be using it and CF will be the optional "default".

 

[IAN SUN]

I can't imagine why anyone would want to jump on Shawn, for making a most reasonable request.. He has put his money on RED and no doubt will continue to do as will I and others would like to invest our money as efficiently as possible.

Other than responding to obvious trolls, there is no need to get our baggies in a twist jumping to RED's defense. There is way too much pilling on happening here. It is does not help RED, it is counterproductive.

As heavily invested as we are in RED gear, and the legacy that comes with that, those of us who have plunked down our money have a direct financial interest in RED's ongoing viability. That means making a profit on gear it sells. No one who has demonstrated their seriousness by dopositing substantial amounts of money is asking for free stuff.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Antony and Elsie,
I believe the 16gb cards are of insufficient speed to take advantage of many of Epic's higher bit rates. So using CF would be to seriously throttle your Epic.