Request: Please make SSD the default module

[tillHavis]

Here's why I think SSD should be the default option for Red - Please bear with me as it affects Epic as much as Scarlet buyers.

HDRx is out of the bag !!!
What was once only a concept is now a reality and I think Red are looking at it as a major selling point.
Which it is !
The problem is people have budgeted based on the prices given in November, especially the Scarlet market.
Adding an extra 1,000 to the price may be a bridge too far for many. Although Jim has said everything is open to change I think he's too decent to add 1,000 to the price of the Scarlet, especially when customers have waited patiently and have been loyal to the brand.

However not adding HDRx would mean cameras like the Panasonic AG-AF100 and others can claim a bigger market share when released, hitting them hard straight off would give Red the dominant share of the market.

Lets be honest apart from the 4/3 sensor, Scarlet (the fixed in particular) is a better spec camera and has more features including a huge resolution difference.

But HDRx really is the ace up Reds sleeve; it has so much potential in the area of FX, keying and especially the Scarlet market where extra DR is always needed for Eng, Documentary and Low budget filmmaking.

So what has this got to do with making SSD the standard option ? EVERYTHING !

Not adding HDRx would be a missed opportunity, and a chance to deal a killer blow to their competitors - So how does this affect Epic ?

Scarlet will need a new designed board - this should not be an issue as most of the work has been done on Epic. Problem is HDRx™™ will prob need a SSD to function to its full potential.
This means either adding HDRx light to the Scarlet and using CF cards ( I think this would be a missed opportunity) or else offering full HDRx with an SSD option.

The problem is this will cost ?

My solution would be to make SSD the default option, offer a SSDrive plus Module and a 1.8" Reader for a great price and have the same standard for Epic and Scarlet.

Make the CF reader the second choice option, and do away with it on the fixed so you can pass on the savings.

As HDRx looks like it will need a SSD to work to it full potential maybe Red should bite the bullet and go for it. This scenario depends on Red not having committed heavily on CF Card technology and buying SSD's in large enough quantities to offer them at an attractive price.

Either way SSD's are the way of the future, getting on board now may mean taking a hit, but the reward could be huge down the line. Prices of SSD's are set to drop before the end of the year and manufacturers will step up to the mark.
Being the first company to offer them as standard on all their cameras would put Red in a pretty dominant position

This is just my take on things; please feel free to disagree.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

With HDRx option in mind, it would be a good time to mention storage requirements:

5:1 or 10:1 HDRx = roughly 100MB/s
= 6 GB per minute = 360GB per hour

2.5:1 or 5:1 HDRx = roughly 200MB/s = 1GB for each five seconds
= 12 GB per minute = 720GB per hour

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Feel like sticking your neck out and explaining why the SSD module would or would not be significantly more expensive than the same CF module (say $50 or $100 at manufacturing cost)? I don't know enough about the electronics to be certain, but it seems like you are pretty well up on that stuff.

If we're talking about the little bits and pieces to actually assemble the module, I can't imagine manufacturing costs would be much, if any, more. But we don't' know what all goes into the different modules.

On the RED One, the side CF module attached to an internal SATA cable. On the Epic / Scarlet we may have something different. What if it's a high-speed bus connection similar to PCIe and then the host controller is incorporated into the module? That could change the dynamics significantly.

That said, I don't think the real cost is in the board or components to support the SSD itself. For example, I think the 1.8" unit for the RED Station is still $250 -- the same as the CF and power units and most of that cost is from the milled aluminum housing.

On the cameras, there seems to be more -- the Epic module has additional boards in it to support interface buttons, two user programmable, and a monitor board. As I understand how monitor output on Epic works, each module processes the signal from the brain, so a monitor module or monitor port on the side media module or rear module, can have it's own output resolution, look/LUT, etc..

Until we all start getting our hands on the final product it's hard to say just what goes into what. And there's also associated manufacturing and quality control costs, R&D expenses to cover...

 

[Andrew Walker]

Shawn's idea is the only thing that makes sense with CF cards not being upgraded anymore. I would like to shoot on SSD. I also think it would be rather weird for RED to have a CF card interface on Epic when they aren't going to really support that format anymore. Plus it seems like Epic is designed for SSD. Guess we'll just have to see if RED does the right thing.

 

[Eren Ozkural]

Even with 64GB CF, it is questionable whether they could support even 5:1.

I was planning on getting 4 alongside the Scarlet 2/3". That would of been a powerful way of recording for long periods in remote locations with out carrying hand fulls of cards. Oh well. We should get a price reduction at some point.


...or a niftier hat

 

[Deanan]

Shawn's idea is the only thing that makes sense with CF cards not being upgraded anymore. I would like to shoot on SSD. I also think it would be rather weird for RED to have a CF card interface on Epic when they aren't going to really support that format anymore. Plus it seems like Epic is designed for SSD. Guess we'll just have to see if RED does the right thing.

CF cards have NOT been killed. We're still moving forward the same as before with CF cards.

 

[Michael Hastings]

That said, I don't think the real cost is in the board or components to support the SSD itself. For example, I think the 1.8" unit for the RED Station is still $250 -- the same as the CF and power units and most of that cost is from the milled aluminum housing.

On the cameras, there seems to be more -- the Epic module has additional boards in it to support interface buttons, two user programmable, and a monitor board. As I understand how monitor output on Epic works, each module processes the signal from the brain, so a monitor module or monitor port on the side media module or rear module, can have it's own output resolution, look/LUT, etc..

Thanks, Jeff - your point about the red station module is well taken, and kind of what I was thinking. As far as the other stuff on the side module, certainly that is much more expensive but would be the same on either a CF or SSD so should be a wash.

Again, I'm not opposed to a small upcharge, and I think SSD is the only thing that makes sense now, but I think the increase should be small enough to allow it to be the default without freaking people out and it seems like $250 and $500 should be easily doable from both ends.

I think either it would cover the additional costs and/or payoff in increased SSD sales initially and be absorbed in the price of the media over time as well since RED basically will have a monopoly on the SSD modules. (and I'm not griping about that, it may have seemed like that when I used to talk about being frustrated at not even being allowed to test third party CF cards but that was less about price and more about the fact that 32 and larger sizes existed which some of us needed, and RED had no workable alternative. With the SSDs, RED already has the larger sizes covered.)

CF cards have NOT been killed. We're still moving forward the same as before with CF cards.

But CF is kind of silly since they are small and essentially technically obsolete before Epic even ships - the year or more of delays with Epic basically means the time window where CF made sense has passed.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

CF cards have NOT been killed. We're still moving forward the same as before with CF cards.

Jarred posted that the 64gb cards should be forgotton. Are you saying that instead 64gb cards are proceeding as ever before?

Even if so, the post still stands and I hope the "default CF slot" gets scrapped asap. Unless you can also say the CF cards are going to be able to do all the data rates needed. Can you provide a compelling reason to stay with CF as the default option? From my perception, CF is NOT the way forward on Epic. Though I posted this thread to have my perception changed if need be.

 

[tillHavis]

CF cards have NOT been killed. We're still moving forward the same as before with CF cards.

I dont think CF cards are going anywhere soon, they are a great tool, but capacity and transfer wise they are more limited than SSD,
and the 64gb CF card which is sure to be necessary for HDRx has been a long time coming,

Panasonic faced the same problem with their P2 cards when they failed to get them to the marketplace fast.
Despite what Panasonic say their sales were affected by the high price point. Even their core market Broadcast, was reluctant to fork out.
Now we can see their cards are limiting them to certain transfer rates and resolutions as they have invested heavily in the format

I'm sure the CF card will have a place in Red's future but the question for me is; whether it is better to go with a format (SSD)
(before any new cameras are released) that is sure to have the capacities and transfer rates to sustain development into the future.


I really hope Red opts for the SSD route, it would avoid certain headaches down the line. Now is the time to get it right and insure that future developments are, in most regards covered.
The last thing I'm sure Jim or the Red team want to hear is I wish we had included full HDRx in the Scarlet and gone for SSD's

My 2 Cents

 

[David Battistella]

I have not been on here for a while.

RECAP:

SSD MODULE IS between 2-2.5K?
CF Module ships with EPIC?

Shawn is asking RED to make the default module the SSD Module and forget about CF?


Why not just ship the EPIC with CF, which we can still use and just ask people to buy and install the SSD module at the time of purchase or make it swappable?

David

 

[Vinit Borrison]

not to mention the "known" problem with the FW ports on the red drives which has cost us thousands of dollars in repairs.... really wish this was rectified, but it seems the same FW board was put back in all the drives.... should have some kind of grace on these ssd modules....

 

[Andrew M.]

CF cards have NOT been killed. We're still moving forward the same as before with CF cards.

Deanan, unless there will be a revolution in the CF cards speed it will not take HDRx stream speed, will it?

 

[PatrickW]

CF cards have NOT been killed. We're still moving forward the same as before with CF cards.

Will there be a dual CF card module that can record to 2 CF cards in a Raid 0 setup to increase recording performance?

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

I Agree!

I Agree!

CF Cards may not have been killed, but only having a 16GB CF card, not making higher capacities, and the CF cards not being fast enough to really support recording on the Epic is not really an "option" IMO. It is a bit like selling a hybrid car without the electric engine and advertising that it can get 100 MPG. The car is drivable as a gas only, but to do what it is advertised as doing, and really what it was meant to do, the buyer has to pay extra to get the electric engine ...

I get that the team at Red has figured out that CF cards are not really a viable option for EPIC. (Amount and rate of the data being too high.) And I applaud them for moving to SSD's. I think that is a great move as it allows for a better road map going forward. However, back in May when I put down my $5,000 towards Stage 2, CF cards, the current Red Ram, and the Red Drive were all viable options, and 64GB CF cards were coming down the pike (or so I thought). It is now just about October, the camera is still not released (with no release dates in sight), and we are essentially being told that the only real recording "option" is to spend an extra $2,500 on an SSD module? I think that those of us who have put down our money early should get something out of the deal ...

Just my $0.02 anyway. I know Red will do the right thing as they have shown time and time again that "they are customers too". I just hope that it is not a bate and switch thing for those of us who have already put down money.

 

[Steve Wake]

128 GB CF

128 GB CF

So if RED is moving forward with CF and 64 GB is out, does that mean they are skipping all the way up to 128GB CF? That would make me and I think a lot of future Scarlet 2/3 owners extremely happy.

 

[Albert C Martin]

So if RED is moving forward with CF and 64 GB is out, does that mean they are skipping all the way up to 128GB CF? That would make me and I think a lot of future Scarlet 2/3 owners extremely happy.

If by 128GB CF you mean SSD, then yes.

 

[Steve Wake]

CF means CF. For me, that means no extra investment in SSD module (at least not for awhile), record time of over 1 hour (non-HDR) and hopefully, enough speed to record 2/3 HDR files. Even 100GB rating with the other 28GB used for proprietary firmware and over-provisioning would work for me. I'm thinking of Scarlet 2/3 here, not Epic.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Thanks, Jeff - your point about the red station module is well taken, and kind of what I was thinking. As far as the other stuff on the side module, certainly that is much more expensive but would be the same on either a CF or SSD so should be a wash.

That seems to make sense... But what if RED is attempting to recover their R&D costs via the modules, therefore a larger premium, and they do this so they can keep the media itself as cheap as possible? I know there's a lot of whining over the SSD costs and comparisons to off-the-shelf SSD prices. But the reality is that if the new RED SSDs can deliver the required performance in an SLC package that works under all conditions and doesn't degrade over time, then they're worth every penny. Not to mention that the RED SSDs are 1.8" and most mainstream SSDs are 2.5", so the off the shelf models are not cramming as much into the same amount of space.

 

[Michael Hastings]

That seems to make sense... But what if RED is attempting to recover their R&D costs via the modules, therefore a larger premium, and they do this so they can keep the media itself as cheap as possible? I know there's a lot of whining over the SSD costs and comparisons to off-the-shelf SSD prices. But the reality is that if the new RED SSDs can deliver the required performance in an SLC package that works under all conditions and doesn't degrade over time, then they're worth every penny. Not to mention that the RED SSDs are 1.8" and most mainstream SSDs are 2.5", so the off the shelf models are not cramming as much into the same amount of space.

I can see the logic there, but I'm promoting the idea that if they do that they are likely to be tempted to just continue with the side CF production - which I think for the most part is a mistake - it's time has past. I understand your point about the side module having other circuitry, but I would hate to think that we will be stuck with what amounts to a $3000 side CF module (just a guess allocation of the portion of the epic price tied up in the side media module) because RED wants to sell the few hundred they already have made when we could have a $3500 side SSD module. Defaulting to the SSD side module will mean the lowest possible cost and solidify the media that makes the most sense for the data rates this camera will be using in its most common modes. Whatever that CF module is worth, it will be immediately a throwaway/complete waste for most of us.

(I'm sure the side CF is already worked out by now - so pretty much no cost to offer it as an option - some of the stills oriented crowd may want it so they can probably eventually sell whatever might be in inventory, but most of those are going to be at least several thousand cameras down the line, or new buyers that are even farther.)

 

[Carsten Fenstermacher]

CF Cards may not have been killed, but only having a 16GB CF card, not making higher capacities, and the CF cards not being fast enough to really support recording on the Epic is not really an "option" IMO. It is a bit like selling a hybrid car without the electric engine and advertising that it can get 100 MPG. The car is drivable as a gas only, but to do what it is advertised as doing, and really what it was meant to do, the buyer has to pay extra to get the electric engine ...

I get that the team at Red has figured out that CF cards are not really a viable option for EPIC. (Amount and rate of the data being too high.) And I applaud them for moving to SSD's. I think that is a great move as it allows for a better road map going forward. However, back in May when I put down my $5,000 towards Stage 2, CF cards, the current Red Ram, and the Red Drive were all viable options, and 64GB CF cards were coming down the pike (or so I thought). It is now just about October, the camera is still not released (with no release dates in sight), and we are essentially being told that the only real recording "option" is to spend an extra $2,500 on an SSD module? I think that those of us who have put down our money early should get something out of the deal ...

Just my $0.02 anyway. I know Red will do the right thing as they have shown time and time again that "they are customers too". I just hope that it is not a bate and switch thing for those of us who have already put down money.

They've already given you an incredible deal with the upgrade program and somehow they're screwing you by giving you what they promised which was a CF module. I don't have an early camera do the upgrade and I'd happily take the generous upgrade with the CF because I can use all the CF cards I already own.

In fact I think Red should take away your upgrades for bitching about the free stuff they're giving you. Starting with Shawn