Rental Price £250 for full package?

[Finner]

This is Off-topic (sorry).

It's not just Apple or pears, what ever. It's Avid. I hate to say it but it's Avid. If this is sorted out without any big investments we are there. Interesting how much power Avid has.

Sorry Hans I don't quite understand please elaborate.

The other day I had a chat about a upcoming job - commercial for cinema - the producer laughed at me (for artistic reason? Why not 35mm...) No one in my realm believes in a proved workflow. This is the main reason why RED will have a hard time in commercial land.

Hans

Please go further with this I am really interested in your thoughts.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I'm shooting a commercial tomorrow/ today which I'd hoped for to be with RED. I haven't received mine so I checked a colleagues one out. Everything is great except for that I realized that I had to much post production to be sure of using it yet. I haven't been able to test the post production path but it seemed to steep for my liking. I will get to test it very soon with my own RED but there's a hinder. After you've shot with RED where to go in the post production jungle. I ruled it to be to unstable at this very moment and therefor I'm unfortunately shooting 35 mm tomorrow (hahhaha never thought I would say that).

Fred

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Trust me guys, Avid is taking Red very seriously. There will be a workflow implemented. All of the post processes will get worked out in relatively short time, and producers will become comfortable with the whole process once they get through a project or two. I've seen producers squabble over flavors of HD too, but once they get comfy with one, then they stick with it.

Red is going to be a godsend for commercials. Once everything settles down and is working as envisioned, I think there will be a big shift towards cameras like the Red. There needs to be a settling in phase, where directors, DPs, producers, etc get comfortable with new tools.

Despite some recent negative vibes I'm getting on the boards about rentals plummeting, etc I think this will be exciting times for everyone, whether you're an owner, renter, whatever. Just being able to use this new technology is exciting. We take so much for granted today, almost expect technology to appear, expect the impossible because so many before us have paved the way. I like to sit back, take a deep breath, and really marvel at what's being accomplished by a bunch of really smart people. Good times.

Steve

 

[Finner]

Hi Fred

Yes red post is a major concern right now. Below is the theory from what I have been able to piece together over the last few days as I have thought on why red post is such a disapointment.

1. Red teams up with Apple. (We know this to be true)

2. Apple announces big red NLE promises at NAB. (we know this to be true)

3. Apple pretty much implements squat for red support in there NLE and does nothing new for the last 10 months.(Judge for yourself how good the apple/red NLE system is.)

4.Cineform trys to get into the game but are shut down due to what Jim calls "legal" reasons. Also other NLE companies are chomping at the bit to get in. Jim mentions he will open up red to other NLE companies after NAB. (What I see here is some kind of contract for red to be exclusive with apple until NAB /08. Would have been nice if apple would have actually done something for us durring this exclusive contract. Also if I am correct with this thinking it really screwed up other NLE companies from having solutions for us now. Competition ALWAYS brings out the best products and in this case I see competition being shut out, not a good thing. I also believe that RED was the little guy here but was expecting more out of this apple partnership deal and have been yanked around a by them. It is clear to see that the success of red cameras is very dependant on a good NLE workflow. ******Please note this is all speculation.*******)

So now we are stuck in Limbo waiting for NAB 08 and hopefully some solutions. Not a good place to be in and we find ourselves in situations like Fred where we want to shoot red but have to go another route only because of one thing POST PRODUCTION. This is a real big issue people and we need to speak loud about it.

 

[roryhinds]

why are you blaming Apple for the RED post slow down - when you should be looking at Assimilate.

Scratch is the only tool that works with REDCODE files.
Assimilate developed REDCINE.

I'm hoping this deal ends NAB and RED is open to work with everyone.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Deran,

FCP is not the NLE of choice. I am saying this as a FCP 1.0 adopter. Most posthouses and most producer think of AVID as the more reliable workhorse. In commercial land (here in Germany, at least) there is 35mm, DigiBeta, Avid, FFF/Quantel. No Apple.

F900 is considered as a pain in the ass because the 1080p stuff has to be ingested and converted (shake, FFF, AE) and played out again on DigiBeta. (Anyone who knows better shuts up, because that's the annoying reality.) FFF dealing with 1080p works but sucks. Henry is still alive and is HD agnostic.

Now, considering this background RED seems to be an even harder threat. Reference movies, FCP, Apple, REDCine, Scratch - dropping these names does not make things easier.

The Gretchen Question is: How long is the turnaround, compared to 35mm, HDCAM - remember we are talking PAL.

What does RAW mean? Can we do size up the picture - we do that in REDCine? Who the f is RedCine, how much? Beta?...

For get it. Hardcore.
I can shoot with RED because I can address all these questions by my self helping them out with my own gear. Somehow I'll dump the footage on digiBeta and sun is back in commercial land.

Are we talking about a working workflow for these part of the industry?

And if anyone says Scratch is the key: No posthouse that is doing business with the agencies I am working for has Scratch. They even never heard of a company called Assimilate - who?

Sorry for that rant, hence who cares about Apple or pears.

Hans

 

[Finner]

why are you blaming Apple for the RED post slow down - when you should be looking at Assimilate.

Scratch is the only tool that works with REDCODE files.
Assimilate developed REDCINE.

I'm hoping this deal ends NAB and RED is open to work with everyone.

Good point Rory. Okay so lets throw Assimilate on the fire while we are at it (HA).

I guess what I am seeing is that these exclusive deals have not helped very much and are more likely very hurtful at this time anyway.

 

[Finner]

Thanks Hans

Good stuff.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi Fred
So now we are stuck in Limbo waiting for NAB 08 and hopefully some solutions. Not a good place to be in and we find ourselves in situations like Fred where we want to shoot red but have to go another route only because of one thing POST PRODUCTION. This is a real big issue people and we need to speak loud about it.

See Deran,

it's all right. But: There is an existing workflow: Offline Avid, Fcp, whatever - online FFF, Baselight, Pablo, Scratch, SpeedGrade etc... It's, just the RED worflow currently only works with FCP - Scratch (not perfectly though). Any other workflow relies on a beta debayer app.

No real world posthouse calls this an bullet proved workflow.

I don't think that Apple is a viable partner for RED at least to start off. Well, they answered the call and they are in. We wait. Things will turnout some how.

Hans

 

[Finner]

We wait. Things will turnout some how.

Hans

Yep

But often a little bit of a push from customers shortens that wait.

 

[donatello b]

perhaps we don't see the BIG picture ... 2 years ago do you really think avid or other NLE company would listen to a person (that made sun glasses) that said they were going to make a 4k camera ( at reasonable price) & would you like to help out on post workflow ? etc - i'm guessing most never replied .. remember back then it was impossible , a scam etc ...
today it is real ... now many would like to climb onboard ..well i sure many would pay 2, 3,4X the price to jump in front of the line to get a RED but Red made a deal with us and they are sticking to it .. and RED made a deal with certain suppliers, NLE , etc and they are sticking to it ... so all those persons/company's that would like to jump to the front are going to have to wait ....
we got in on the deal & so did FCP & scratch !!! a deal is a deal !!
work with it !!!

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Yep

But often a little bit of a push from customers shortens that wait.

Very true!

Good night,

Hans

 

[David Birdy]

Trust me guys, Avid is taking Red very seriously. There will be a workflow implemented. All of the post processes will get worked out in relatively short time, and producers will become comfortable with the whole process once they get through a project or two. I've seen producers squabble over flavors of HD too, but once they get comfy with one, then they stick with it.

Red is going to be a godsend for commercials. Once everything settles down and is working as envisioned, I think there will be a big shift towards cameras like the Red. There needs to be a settling in phase, where directors, DPs, producers, etc get comfortable with new tools.

Despite some recent negative vibes I'm getting on the boards about rentals plummeting, etc I think this will be exciting times for everyone, whether you're an owner, renter, whatever. Just being able to use this new technology is exciting. We take so much for granted today, almost expect technology to appear, expect the impossible because so many before us have paved the way. I like to sit back, take a deep breath, and really marvel at what's being accomplished by a bunch of really smart people. Good times.

Steve

Great Post Steve I agree.

Dave

 

[Brent J. Craig]

These exclusive deals have really hurt the adoption of Red here. Commercials especially want to use the camera, but if the post houses don't have the one magical working workflow they are out of luck.

The camera was developed in such an open transparent way that it shocks me to see how legally tied up the back end is. Perhaps Red took advantage of an opportunity to get some pretty good software developed inexpensively without tying up too much of their limited staff, but has it helped or hurt them?

Free, open development seems to be the way to go in the software world, particularly when you are trying to convince people to do things in a new way.

Hopefully the exclusive deals end at NAB08 and we see some real world, production-ready systems to get the ones and zeros from the camera to the screen.

 

[Brent J. Craig]

The other thing that will hurt the adoption of Red is when people who have no business renting cameras become cheapo rental houses.

All it will take is a few jobs in each city that get burned by poorly maintained, badly configured, or untested cameras for the Red camera to get a bad reputation. Are people renting out of their garages keeping up with hardware/firmware updates, recommend procedures, and basic maintenance?

I still hear nasty rumours on sets that "the red camera breaks down in the cold" or "the lenses don't line up". Do those things happen now? No, but the people who put up the money for shoots have long memories.

 

[David Birdy]

The other thing that will hurt the adoption of Red is when people who have no business renting cameras become cheapo rental houses.

All it will take is a few jobs in each city that get burned by poorly maintained, badly configured, or untested cameras for the Red camera to get a bad reputation. Are people renting out of their garages keeping up with hardware/firmware updates, recommend procedures, and basic maintenance?

I still hear nasty rumours on sets that "the red camera breaks down in the cold" or "the lenses don't line up". Do those things happen now? No, but the people who put up the money for shoots have long memories.

Agreed,

RED needs to maintain a "good" reputation in an industry that spends money based on rumors.....Let's all make sure we bid with good support and engineering know how. If you don't know and you are in over your head get training...education is a good thing!!

Dave

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

See Deran,

it's all right. But: There is an existing workflow: Offline Avid, Fcp, whatever - online FFF, Baselight, Pablo, Scratch, SpeedGrade etc... It's, just the RED worflow currently only works with FCP - Scratch (not perfectly though). Any other workflow relies on a beta debayer app.

No real world posthouse calls this an bullet proved workflow.

I don't think that Apple is a viable partner for RED at least to start off. Well, they answered the call and they are in. We wait. Things will turnout some how.

Hans

Dear Hans,


My commercial is a very post heavy production and I can't afford the bandwith of turning REDCode into dpx files. It's simply to heavy and I haven't had time to see what it look like if I offline/telecine it and then bring it down to HD. Keeping it in 4K to the very last end and then down scale it would have been the nice solution. We did some quick tests and found it slightly unstable with 2K telecined material (in scratch) as well and to try to have untelecined material and then telecine after was not an option. It simply needed more attention then I had time for this time around. It was also way to many people who wasn't sure in how to handle it, so the call had to be to go with the already known path.

I think this will change and I sincerely hope that we hopefully at some point will be able to work with REDcode until the very end and then telecine in scratch or other solutions. This way post production with RED will become feasible for all of them that has bought it.


fred

 

[John Godden]

Wow, is this price reflecting the "new economics" that Red is bringing to cinema rentals?

JohnG

 

[Greg David]

I bet that price goes up once they ACTUALLY get the camera.

 

[Chris Parker]

most production companies won't go for the $500 a day RED package from the guy renting out of his garage though anyways. they will go to someone they trust...even if it means paying more. this is what they have always done....the job of the producer on a project with a medium to big budget isn't solely to save money and wring out as much profit as possible. their job is to hire the right people, and the right gear from the right places, and spend what the budget dictates to make it happen.

so, these places that will practically give their camera away may succeed, but not in the high end sectors of the industry....