Remote Phosphor Lighting, which one?

[Mark K.]

I recently purchased the Cineo / Trucolor HS & LS units.

Opinion comparing remote phosphor to fluorescent: I prefer the remote phosphor. Some reasons:

Impressive output - one HS fixture exceeds the lumen output of a 2K soft using less than 500 watts AC.

Better visual feel to the light.

Higher CRI - up to 97 at 4300K

Swapping panels versus bulbs to change color temp - very fast - panels are also easier to transport than bulbs.

Has both local and DMX512 dimming. If you want, you can control your entire setup with a board.
Note: DMX control is on the ballast which can be as far as 100' away from the fixture.

100% flicker free.

Build quality is excellent - they will outlast me.



Disadvantage versus Kino's:

Weight. 14 lbs each for the fixture and ballast. I'm more comfortable flying a Diva at the end of a boom arm - an HS, no. Have not tried flying one of the LS yet - outputs would be a better comparison. (Fixture is under 5 lbs.)


About cases: I was aware of some cases made for the HS units when they first came out. Since then, the ballast was redesigned. Have not seen anything new yet. Might place an order for a custom case soon.

I have not had a chance to work with both the BBS A48 and Cineo HS side by side but look forward to the opportunity.
An advantage (for now) with the BBS units is the ability to run off batteries.
Cineo has something in the pipeline but no announcement of a release date yet.

They do have a different RP called the Foton which is AC or DC, but this is in a different class usage than the others.

Thanks Brian, that's a big help, puts some things into perspective. The battery capability of the BBS is definitely an advantage (especially for exteriors work obviously), the Cineos do look superbly constructed though. Booming the lights overhead is also a concern for me (as I do it all the time) but I think the Cineo LS unit should be fine for that sort of thing - and probably a little easier to handle than booming a Kino, simply due to its smaller overall size.

Another possible advantage to the BBS (over the Cineo LS) is that the RP panel itself seems considerably larger, so the larger source should allow it to wrap around talent somewhat more smoothly than the Cineo LS unit will.

I'm finding myself quite torn between the two units at the moment, though perhaps it's best to hold off a little longer at this stage - since the RP market will almost certainly blow up pretty damn quickly.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Also, it was mentioned somewhere that the trucolor lights are working on a battery option. I've used the trucolor HS several times on shoots, as a DP, not gaffer, and they are super bright and very versatile.

What are the strengths of remote phosphor vs something like plasma?

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Also, it was mentioned somewhere that the trucolor lights are working on a battery option. I've used the trucolor HS several times on shoots, as a DP, not gaffer, and they are super bright and very versatile.

What are the strengths of remote phosphor vs something like plasma?

Cineo recently showed a DC powered LS and are now tweaking some aspects of the design. Release of the final should be in a couple of months.

As far as remote phosphor versus plasma?
Remote phosphors are a soft wrap around source - many around 160 degrees of spread. Plasmas - more like a fresnel. Of course, that is easily remedied with standard lighting controls.

To me, a drawback to plasma is that you cannot dim plasma lights without a dramatic shift in color temperature. While they do have DMX control listed on spec sheets, that is only for "On-Off" ops.
The remote phosphor sources can be dimmed without any shift in color.

Plasma lights are flicker free up to millions of frames per second and twice as efficient as HMI's - I would say that makes them very future proof as new high speed capture devices come out of the labs.
They now have adapters to fit onto a Source 4 just like the Jokers.

 

[M. Bergeron]

For just a little more money, according to the specs, the trucolor HS has 252 sq in of lighting surface compared to 151 sq in for the Area48. I don't know what this means in real life but you seem to get close to double.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

For just a little more money, according to the specs, the trucolor HS has 252 sq in of lighting surface compared to 151 sq in for the Area48. I don't know what this means in real life but you seem to get close to double.

You might want to check out this thread that was active over the weekend:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?106812-Raising-noise-floor-in-20-x20-room


Mentioned in that thread that I have created a Dropbox folder with some quick samples.
Can open shares to anyone interested.

 

[Mark K.]

For just a little more money, according to the specs, the trucolor HS has 252 sq in of lighting surface compared to 151 sq in for the Area48. I don't know what this means in real life but you seem to get close to double.

The Trucolor HS has a MUCH higher output than the Area 48 (which is comparable to Cineo's smaller LS fixture), but I don't think you could call it 'a little more money', it's almost twice the price.

 

[M. Bergeron]

Thanks for the link

The Trucolor HS has a MUCH higher output than the Area 48 (which is comparable to Cineo's smaller LS fixture), but I don't think you could call it 'a little more money', it's almost twice the price.

My bad, I based my observation on this link thinking it only needed a pair of panels to make the kit work... but I guess the trucolor needs an external ballast, does Area 48 need one too?
http://www.adorama.com/TCHS7000001.html

From both website I see that Trucolor's 5600 is 91CRI and Area 48's is 96 CRI. What does that difference mean in real world usage?

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Thanks for the link



My bad, I based my observation on this link thinking it only needed a pair of panels to make the kit work... but I guess the trucolor needs an external ballast, does Area 48 need one too?
http://www.adorama.com/TCHS7000001.html

From both website I see that Trucolor's 5600 is 91CRI and Area 48's is 96 CRI. What does that difference mean in real world usage?

From my viewpoint:

The Area 48 does not require a ballast - it is powered from either on board battery or a 160W external power supply (4 pin XLR). That can be a real advantage depending on the setup. Small location or stage and you are set up and shooting quickly. Though Area 48 is the only one battery powered for now, Cineo did show a prototype at IBC - product is being tweaked now, expected to be available shortly.

There are advantages with a remote ballast arrangement too. A long list actually - first thoughts include single fixtures up to a hundred feet away and controllable back at the ballast makes for a lot of flexibility. Less weight at the end of a boom. For DMX multi-fixture setups, only one cable to the fixture itself - both power and DMX control are back at the ballast. For full day location or soundstage shooting, this works out. Saves running both power and DMX cables to each unit.

A correction to your post: AT 5600K, the Trucolor is rated at 94 CRI (not 91). In real world usage I would think you are probably beyond the eye and into test & measurement.
FWIW, according to Cineo, the CRI rating goes up to 97 with 4300K panels, 98 with 3200K panels.

However, personally, I do not trust any manufacturers published CRI ratings - they are not consistent. For example, I have two sets of data sheets published by Area 48. In one data sheet, CRI at 3200 degrees is 97 where the other data sheet says 95. At 5600 degrees, one sheet specifies a CRI of 95, the other at 93.
Not saying which is right and which is wrong, just that the published data is not consistent.

The Area 48 compares in output to the Trucolor LS.
Yes, the Trucolor HS is twice the price but it is much more powerful. Amazingly so.


If you are considering the lower powered fixtures (LS and Area 48), there are two other advantages to the Area 48 that may play a role in your decision.
The Cineo Trucolor lights have a bottom threshold of 10% related to dimming. The Area 48's go down to zero.
The Area 48's also have special effects (strobing) built in.

It all comes town to what lighting fixture best fits your own particular needs. I needed at least one high powered fixture with smaller units to complement. That steered me to the HS and LS units to start. Depending on how Cineo produces their final design on the battery powered LS, I may add one of those or acquire my first Area 48.

One feature I'm hoping for (from either manufacturer) is a variable DMX controllable flicker effect. Right now, I have the GAM Flicker Master. All knobs - no DMX. That would be a nice add. Time will tell...

 

[Curt Pair]

(if anyone knows of other brands options that are available at the moment please let me know!).

Have you looked at the Nilas? How about AAdynTech? Those are pretty cool too! I know that Nila has some remote phospher heads, not sure about AAdynTech yet... The Nilas are awesome!

 

[Nick Fury]

Hi Brian,

You are probably aware that the Area 48's can be controlled from an iphone/Ipad, with the Baxter piece and a router:

http://dmx2go.com/

Area 48 also offers a C Stand mountable bar, that hold #2->4 Area 48's on one stand:

http://bbslighting-com.myshopify.com/products/area-48-2x2-lighting-bracket

Now, each can be remotely and separately (no wires or cables) controlled, with the above setup, for example, allowing a lotta flexibility.

Thank you very much

Fury

 

[M. Bergeron]

Lots of great information, thanks!

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Have you looked at the Nilas? How about AAdynTech? Those are pretty cool too! I know that Nila has some remote phospher heads, not sure about AAdynTech yet... The Nilas are awesome!

Curt,

Did Nila actually produce the remote phosphor unit they said was under development at NAB and IBC?

When Production Hub interviewed Jim Sanfilippo (President/CEO Nila) at NAB, he showed a prototype remote phosphor unit in a Boxer housing. He mentioned that they were planning on producing three different sizes with an estimated six month development timeline.

Tried doing some inquiries through distributors - no luck yet. I do not see any mention of a remote phosphor product on their website. So far, the Boxer data sheets only reference availability in tungsten or daylight and accessories such as gels...

Nila makes good products - eagerly waiting to learn more when this unit is available...

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Hi Brian,

You are probably aware that the Area 48's can be controlled from an iphone/Ipad, with the Baxter piece and a router:

http://dmx2go.com/

Area 48 also offers a C Stand mountable bar, that hold #2->4 Area 48's on one stand:

http://bbslighting-com.myshopify.com/products/area-48-2x2-lighting-bracket

Now, each can be remotely and separately (no wires or cables) controlled, with the above setup, for example, allowing a lotta flexibility.

Thank you very much

Fury

Nick,

I had forgotten about the app control - became buried in the noise on the Area 48 GB thread. That is a great feature and should be highlighted on the BBS website.
Excellent information!

Those lighting brackets have a very familiar design - likely different overall dimensions. Might be interesting to try using a Matthews Baby 2Fer for the same application - that would fit in any kit.