Redspace

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

I open this thread to disuss about this new feature.

Since i found no information about what RedSpace really is, i played a little bit to try to get some answers.
RedSpace looks like a 2.2 linear image with a S shape curve applied to it. Now, what are the advantages of this? Well, the rolloff to whites should be smoother before the sensor clips. Before redspace we had a 709 curve applied to linear gamma of 1.0, which meant that when the sensor clipped, there was almost no gradient into pure white. Now there is.
But besides this factor, what advantages do you find?

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I did't upgrade on build 16 yet so I only had build 15 footage to look at in RedSpace. I personally find RedSpace in the mids brighter and more saturated than the legacy Rec709 plus in the hights with a better roll-off. Rec709 in RC never worked for me, it crushed the higlights unnecessarily and made a nice roll-off difficult - I used always RedLog.
IMO, the blacks and deep mids in RedSpace have a slightly steeper gamma giving the whole thing the necessary punch without loosing valuable information.

I think it's not just a s-curve but a major tweek in the matrix, IMHO. Although saturation increases when a picture becomes more contrasty I personally doubt that this amount of saturation emerges just by applying curves, hence my assumption that the matrix must be altered somehow.

All in all a much more pleasing and brighter, "vibrant" picture on the clients monitor. In this regard a major step I glady will use when the whole pipeline for build 16 streamlined.

On the gamma side: Don't all displays use gamma 2.2? Only ones that don't are Apple's when set to default, AFAIK.

On the camera generated proxie side: Do the proxies look brighter and nicer aswell when camera set to RedSpace? I found the Rec709 proxies too desaturated and dark for proper offline editing and always "graded" them in compressor for transcoding.

Hans

 

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

Test (with cameraRGB color space):

- create a tif with redspace gamma
- create a tif with 709 gamma and adjust curve with an S shape favoring the mids.

Compare:
- same image.

 

[Stuart English]

REDspace

REDspace

On the camera generated proxie side: Do the proxies look brighter and nicer aswell when camera set to RedSpace? I found the Rec709 proxies too desaturated and dark for proper offline editing and always "graded" them in compressor for transcoding.

Yes, the proxies will also follow REDspace.

 

[David Battistella]

Yes, the proxies will also follow REDspace.

Stuart,

I read on red.com:

"Certain settings from RED Alert! generated QuickTime reference movies will not transfer, including: Curve, Color Space, Gamma Space, DRX."

Does this mean that for the time being we can not do a quick grade and use make quicktimes and then use compressor to render out "corrected" movies?

Will this stay this way or does it just need to be fixed?

Thanks,
David

 

[Stuart English]

REDspace

REDspace

On the camera generated proxie side: Do the proxies look brighter and nicer aswell when camera set to RedSpace? I found the Rec709 proxies too desaturated and dark for proper offline editing and always "graded" them in compressor for transcoding.

Yes, the proxies will also follow REDspace.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Test (with cameraRGB color space):

- create a tif with redspace gamma
- create a tif with 709 gamma and adjust curve with an S shape favoring the mids.

Compare:
- same image.

I'm checking this tomorrow.

Thanks,

Hans

 

[Stuart English]

QuickTime

QuickTime

I read on red.com:

"Certain settings from RED Alert! generated QuickTime reference movies will not transfer, including: Curve, Color Space, Gamma Space, DRX."

Does this mean that for the time being we can not do a quick grade and use make quicktimes and then use compressor to render out "corrected" movies?

Will this stay this way or does it just need to be fixed?

Yes, that's a limitation of exports from RED Alert!, but thats not so with the camera generated QuickTime reference files.

 

[Brook Willard]

Stuart, do you happen to have a spreadsheet that shows how REDspace translates the A/D's linear values? Something with 0 - 4,095 in one column and the REDspace values in another? I'm just curious to understand specifically what the REDspace curve looks like so I can better visualize how it relates to what I already know about the sensor.

 

[Emery Wells]

I open this thread to disuss about this new feature.

Since i found no information about what RedSpace really is, i played a little bit to try to get some answers.
RedSpace looks like a 2.2 linear image with a S shape curve applied to it. Now, what are the advantages of this? Well, the rolloff to whites should be smoother before the sensor clips. Before redspace we had a 709 curve applied to linear gamma of 1.0, which meant that when the sensor clipped, there was almost no gradient into pure white. Now there is.
But besides this factor, what advantages do you find?

We should be careful to distinguish between the redspace viewing gamma and redspace camera matrix when discussing. Maybe changing one of the names would be helpful?

 

[Dj Joofa]

Stuart, do you happen to have a spreadsheet that shows how REDspace translates the A/D's linear values? Something with 0 - 4,095 in one column and the REDspace values in another? I'm just curious to understand specifically what the REDspace curve looks like so I can better visualize how it relates to what I already know about the sensor.

If RedAlert/RedCine lets you write linear data as a file (don't know about that) and RedSpace as a file, then you may be able to find the transformation between the two.