Reds impact on still photography

[Lauri Kettunen]

This is an interesting issue. I shoot outdoors with my Red One and quite often together with professional still photographers. The interesting point is that when have shown some grabbed frames from the footages to my colleagues thye've spontaneously replied that they were not able to get as high quality photos. When saying so they have pointed to the dynamics of Red One or have wondered how beautifully R! is able to pick rather subtle tones of colors.

Furthermore, in the past thought that an optical viewfinder is the best one can think of. But now, after viewing through a DSLR side by side to a R1 in low light conditions and wondering how bright the EVF/LCD is compared to what I can see through the OVF have started to think twice. We'll see .... but in my case I'm prepared to give up of DSLRs.

 

[JanneJansson]

Use great gear, and you out bid your competitions. Use great gear, and create great things, and you change the world.

 

[morgan_moore]

Maybe you guys missed the fact that Annie Leibovitz, Steven Meisel, Steven Klein and Greg Williams are all shooting covers and spreads on RED ONEs. Don't underestimate. And EPIC/Scarlet are a lot more stills friendly.

http://www.b2pro.com/gallery/shot_on_red/index.php

Jim

I am a pro stills photographer learning 'motion' - I would love to shoot motion that I could grab stills from

I have still not understood the shutter speed conundrum

to freeze motion you need lets say 200/th

now if you shoot movie you want say 1/48th

If it makes sharp stills it will make choppy movie, if it makes smooth movie the stills will be blurred by definition

Sure the red can be used as a fast motordrive stills camera but I would imaging one is not creating usable movie

thats what is done here..

http://www.b2pro.com/images/db/video/2.mov interesting but not 'movie footage'

I ll stick with my nikon D3 to do that thanks

I would love to be able to grab stills from USABLE footage the possibilities are endless and exciting

But I dont see how it can work

Well actually I do .. heres how

Shoot at 240 FPS, FUll Frame RAW, shutter 1/480th -

(yes that will need some mean ISO)

Grab your sharpish stills and create smooth movie frames by stacking 10 frames atop of each other in a blended manner

So we need a 240FPS, FF RAW, monster buffer and onboard storage and 'post' computers to handle it

It would seem that the technology is an order of magnitude away from that

SMM

 

[Fran Kuhn]

Now lets analyze this thread. It was the 2nd post on RED User for the guy who started it. After having been a member of RED User since day one, and having been a moderator here too, in my experience guys who enter this board with a negative first post have an agenda, are trolling, or simply like to stir things up. I'm not necessarily saying thats the case with this poster, but since the DSMC tech specs haven’t even been finalized it is futile to speculate on what a DSMC camera can or can’t do. A quick use of the Search tool here on RED User will bring up previous threads of the same topic since 12/3/08 when RED announced the DSMC. Since the tech specs haven't been finalized, much less a DSMC available for field testing, its best not to draw any conclusions on its capabilities yet.

Hi Steve,

I don't believe the opening post was negative. If you re-read it, Matthias is simply asking some technical questions about using the RED cameras for shooting stills. Myself, and a lot of guys I know who are pro still shooters, have the same questions.

Personally, I think any DSMC RED, or anyone else for that matter, releases will need accurate auto focus and great high ISO performance to be competitive with the existing still cameras from Canon and Nikon. Also, none of the pro sports shooters I've spoken to are going back to manual focus no matter how many fps a camera can shoot. Stills guys also need the ability to use strobe--I mean, even Annie Leibovitz isn't going to pack a truckload of 10Ks up some hill at Tejon Ranch the next time Vanity Fair sends her out on location. I'd bet she'll be using her Profotos. So that's a big one that needs fixing. At least I think so.

Anyway, you have some great work on your reel, so I'd love to hear your take on Matthias' questions.

Thanks,

Fran

 

[domdaher]

Hi guys I start to be tired of the buzz, I was 100 % behind the whole Red concept, but we talk a lot and don't see anything…I guess dreaming about a new way to spend money can be interesting but for me the result is more important.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Steve,

I don't believe the opening post was negative. If you re-read it, Matthias is simply asking some technical questions about using the RED cameras for shooting stills. Myself, and a lot of guys I know who are pro still shooters, have the same questions.

Personally, I think any DSMC RED, or anyone else for that matter, releases will need accurate auto focus and great high ISO performance to be competitive with the existing still cameras from Canon and Nikon. Also, none of the pro sports shooters I've spoken to are going back to manual focus no matter how many fps a camera can shoot. Stills guys also need the ability to use strobe--I mean, even Annie Leibovitz isn't going to pack a truckload of 10Ks up some hill at Tejon Ranch the next time Vanity Fair sends her out on location. I'd bet she'll be using her Profotos. So that's a big one that needs fixing. At least I think so.

Anyway, you have some great work on your reel, so I'd love to hear your take on Matthias' questions.

Thanks,

Fran

Hi Fran,

As I said in my quote that you quoted, those same questions have been asked – and answered by RED Team – many times since the 12/3/08 announcement of the DSMC line of cameras. So why start a new thread on the same subject, rather than simply use the search tool to find the many existing old threads on the subject, see what RED Team had to say, and leave it at that? As I noted in my previous post, I’ve been a pro stills photographer, pro cinematographer, and pro videographer for time spans of between three and four decades, depending on which one you’re talking about – so I had those same questions about the DSMC initially.

Again, the tech specs for the DSMC line (and Epic) have not even been finalized, let alone DSMC cameras been tested by customers in field use, so it is way too early to jump to conclusions about what will or won’t be included in the final specs. Jim Jannard is a deeply experienced (35+ years) stills photographer and cinematographer, in film and later in digital. His personal stills photography is exceptional – there have been many examples of it posted here on RED User and elsewhere. Beyond the beautifully done Oakley studio photography he did over the years, he also has done gigantic amounts of sports photography – don’t forget that Oakley has been heavily involved with sports from its very beginning. Trust me, Jim (and RED Team) know what a digital stills camera needs in order to maximize its utilitarian value – just as he (and RED Team) have demonstrated he/they know what features a digital cinema camera needs.

Keeping in mind that all specifications of the DSMC line are subject to change until they are announced as finalized, here are some pertinent quotes by Jim Jannard posted here on RED User that should get your attention. I got these by using the search tool – just like many of the posters on this thread could have and should have:


“I don't think the term "DSLR-killer" is a mistake. The term is not intended to talk about specifically Scarlet and EPIC, but rather the concept of a system that shoots both stills and motion without compromise instead of "one or the other".

As for lenses... I do agree. And we plan on an extensive lineup. Starting with the 4 we announced. Many more will follow. We have to start somewhere.

Let me expound a bit on the lenses... USM, optically stabilized (except for the 15-25mm zoom).

Our auto-focus system will compete heads up with the very best DSLRs.

As for "true lossless". That means uncompressed. Which camera offers that? As far as I can tell, every company's RAW has a form of mild compression, which we will offer also. For example, Hasselblad's RAW is compressed. Zip files also come to mind.

There are many forms of REDCODE. Stills will not have the same compression ratio as motion. Think Hasselblad.

How do you know what compression ratio we will dedicate to stills?

I have shot more still cameras than I care to think about (I own over 800 bodies alone). We certainly don't have all the answers, but it isn't from lack of shooting experience (35 years of SLR, medium format, large format, panoramic, stereo, DSLR, etc.). I currently shoot a Canon 1Ds MKIII and have every Canon lens available. I just sold the 1200mm (actually, I'm selling everything if anyone is interested).

Less than 2 seconds startup.

Jim
11/19/08
http://205.234.135.241/forum/showthread.php?t=22453


-----------------------------------


The above quotes are just the very tip of the iceberg on what Jim and RED Team have stated about the DSMC line of cameras – all subject to change until announced as finalized – but their statements give us a view into their line of thinking, experience, and outlook. The guy who started this thread, and many of the posters on this thread, needed to simply use the search tool like the rest of us, rather than start a new thread and post opinions that have been discussed here at length for the past 10 months since the DSMC line concept was first mentioned here by Jim Jannard.

Again, all specs are subject to change, but if you go to the 12/3/08 announcement on RED’s web site, and read through it, you’ll find the following interesting statements which give some insight on what RED was thinking on 12/3/08 about the DSMC:

Lens Mounts:
Leverage your investments in optics. Sensor modules support RED, PL, Canon, and Nikon mounts, which may be interchanged as required to suit a specific lens or application. Mounts include power and intelligent lens data interfaces


“Pick a Lens or Ten” page:
RED Electronic Lenses
(FF35 format)
15-25mm f/2.8 AF
25-100mm f/2.8 AF Stabilized
70-200mm f/2.8 AF Stabilized
300mm f/2.8 AF Stabilized
1.4x Extender AF
2.0x Extender AF

In tandem with the proposed AF features of the new RED lenses above, see again Jim’s statement in his quotes above on the quality of the DSMC’s AF capabilities.

I see some confusion in many posts on this thread about how a DSMC will usually be used - Morgan Moore’s post above, etc. RED Has posted many DSMC mockups, and displayed DSMC mockups at the Rio hotel during NAB. Again this is subject to change, but those DSMC mockups included a simple switch on the camera to change quickly from motion to stills shooting. The assumption is that users could have separate profiles stored for the motion and stills shooting of the day’s subjects, and on the fly switch between them. If it was sports, maybe you’d be shooting 3k/29.97 fps/ISO 400/120th second or 1/196th second shutter for motion, and perhaps have the stills profile set for AF, ISO 600/ and 1/500th shutter, fps you prefer, or whatever else you prefer. In operation, at the flick of your thumb you’d be able to switch from a motion shooting profile to a stills shooting profile.

I see the mistaken notion on this thread that the only way you will be able to get stills from a DSMC is to pull them from motion footage – thus posts like that of Morgan Moore, and others. Yes, that can be done in certain instances, as we have been doing with RED One. But if the features RED has posted stay in the final specifications of the DSMC, then the primary way to get stills from a DSMC will be to simply switch it to stills mode and shoot it as you would your Nikon or Canon DSLR.

------------------------------

I really hope the above info helps you and the others on this thread to understand a bit more about RED’s thinking on the DSMC. IMO they will have also brainstormed solutions for basically every other issue and feature needed for the stills portion of the camera – and we already know they pretty much have the motion portion of the camera dialed in from their experience gained producing RED One.

Like all of you, I look forward to the finalized specifications for all the new RED camera models, including the DSMC line. IMO RED will cover all bases with the DSMC line - for both motion and stills. For the work me and my crews do, the DSMC cameras, Epic for higher frame rates, and a few fixed lens Scarlets for mobile "run n' gun", will be the components of our new production kits.

Thank you for the kind words on my reel and work! I was just real fortunate to be one of the very earliest adopters of RED One (RED #8 and others), so I also got a head start on field use of the cameras. I will also be one of the very first persons to receive an Epic and Scarlet, including a DSMC. As I have with RED One, I will happily share my field shooting experiences and tips with everyone here on RED User.

Final disclaimer:
All specifications are subject to change until they are announced as finalized. The above is simply based on what has been previously stated by RED Team members.

 

[Fran Kuhn]

Thanks, Steve. I appreciate the reply.

BTW I don't look at REDuser very often so I somehow missed the Company's announcement of AF as a possibility for the DSMC. I have to believe they are addressing the strobe compatibility issue in some way, too.

I look forward to seeing what the new cameras can do once they arrive.

-Fran

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

just my .02 cents. Keep a still camera and a motion camera. Get a Red and a Canon EOS 1d or 5d. Lets not compromise this whole mess. I find combined systems that have both still and motion capture are half hearted, weak or otherwise terrible. I don't believe the two worlds should converge lets keep things simple. :smile:

This sounds a lot like what the mobile phone industry was saying before the iPhone

"nobody will want an all in one PDA and Phone."

WRONG.

All about execution of course. As the lae to market Blackberry touch is a P.O.S.

 

[David Rasberry]

The only caveat in comparing conventional digital still cameras, or severely compromised crossover cameras like the Canon 5DII, with something like RED is planning is relative cost. True digital raw motion capable cameras will be more expensive as film cameras have been, though the cost difference is shrinking.

Personally I am looking forward to some creative experimentation with DSMC shooting techniques no other remotely affordable personal camera system is currently capable of.

 

[Shane Nassiri]

Good points David. Everyone who is naysaying seems to be thinking about this in conventional terms. The DSMC system really opens up opportunites to be creative and experiment with new workflows, a sampling of which we've already seen with the Red One.

The 5D2 produces great stills and OK video. I think the dsmc line will do more than produce great video and ok stills. It may still be a video camera first, but if some of the shots we've seen already are an indication, then we'll have a great still capture system as well.

 

[Emiliano Ranzani]

I don't know if the current generation of pro still photographers will be that much interested in the DSMC system - sure, there will be many who will be, as -luckly- there are a lot of people always looking for new things to try, but as a whole I think the majority might not be tempted to invest money in it. Most of the pro I know in that field aren't really so obsessed with cameras - they like their job because of the things they create with them: would a guy who already has a Canon 1D Mark III and is steadily active in the biz be that interested in buying a Scarlet or Epic, especially when he knows he's gonna pay for features (motion!) having nothing to do with his job?

I guess the DSMC will probably help raise a new generation of professionals, able to shoot properly both stills and motion without heavy compromises, rather than changing things for those who are already earning their living in the field.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

would a guy who already has a Canon 1D Mark III and is steadily active in the biz be that interested in buying a Scarlet or Epic, especially when he knows he's gonna pay for features (motion!) having nothing to do with his job?

Often if one finds tools that give a better outcome than the existing ones, this creates a need to change equipments. So if RED sensors have higher dynamics and give higher number of frames per second, this will then likely to make many to reconsider the equipment they use. Say if one biz is about shooting sports outdoors, increased dynamics and high fps is quite an advantage.

 

[Emiliano Ranzani]

Often if one finds tools that give a better outcome than the existing ones, this creates a need to change equipments. So if RED sensors have higher dynamics and give higher number of frames per second, this will then likely to make many to reconsider the equipment they use. Say if one biz is about shooting sports outdoors, increased dynamics and high fps is quite an advantage.

I guess you're right - even though most of the pro I know work in the fashion\glamour end of the biz...what the hell, I guess the only thing to do is waiting until the gears are out and people are using 'em...speculations are pretty useless...

 

[Steve Gibby]

Digital imaging technology has been converging for some time now. The formerly distinct dividing lines between the tools and technology used by digital still photographers, digital cinematographers, and digital videographers have been moving steadily closer in this decade.

What effect has this had on the overall imaging industry? In the work environments where multi-job classification and multi-skilled workers are prevalent, the evolution is toward people who can earn a living in several of the formerly separate areas of work.

I'm not talking about a "jack of all trades and master of none" scenario, but rather a "jack of many trades and a master of each of them" scenario. The imaging business is just that - a business. The more skills you have, and the more capable, scalable, and flexible the digital equipment you own - the more potential earning power you have. The business days of networks and clients asking "Are you a photographer, cinematographer, or videographer?" are rapidly evolving in busy client executive's minds into questions like "How many solutions can you bring to the table - cost effectively?"

Art and craft are great - but as business people we also need to pay close attention to technological advances that unlock opportunities to expand our skill sets and thus our earning potential. What we formerly had to mostly rent, we can now afford to own. The real challenge for someone approaching the use of a DSMC camera will be for them to have or develop skill sets broad enough and deep enough to fully unleash the creative and revenue generation potential of the camera. I believe that open minded people with broad and deep skill sets will absolutely polarize to such a camera system - and their skill sets and bank accounts will flourish accordingly.

Technology moves forward. We're in a tech-intensive, rapidly-convergent imaging industry. If we allow ourselves to to put blinders on and slide into an "I've have arrived" comfort zone, our competitors in our workspace will simply pass us by. The more we learn - the more we should realize we don't know. This industry is dynamic (constantly evolving) - and we must also be dynamic and evolve along with it. We should approach each work day with an attitude of "What can I learn today?" - for our entire career.

I've grown to actually enjoy associates saying they're not interested in learning new equipment and spreading their skill sets. In my mind that's one more potential competitor in my work spaces that I don't have to worry about - because as Darwin asserted, species (and individuals within them) who don't evolve simply mark themselves for extinction - and yes, Darwin's principle of Natural Selection is quite valid in the imaging business.

 

[Joseph Ward]

Don't forget DSMC can also be for Hardlined ENG LIVE BRODCASTING or TV use!:ihih:

 

[Emiliano Ranzani]

Once again, I have to play the skeptic-guy: while I know there are people out there who are already using the RedOne for ENG and TV work, I doubt the DSMCs will ever enter those trenches - at least in my country. Maybe in the US you work differently. I live in Italy and I occasionally do ENG - the standard format for broadcasting is still BETA SP emote_headwall, but that's another matter. By the way work is organized, I can hardly see a tapeless RAW-based format being used for that stuff: the need for processing the RAW files is already a major stopper as it is time-consuming, not to mention the fact broadcasters (at least major, national ones) want all the footage secured on tape.

Then, of course, a small production company can make a deal with a TV-station to produce material (a documentary maybe?) and use Reds, especially if they would handle all the post work in-house. But that's another story.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Hardware,

No, there aren't a lot of people using RED One for ENG (electronic news gathering). Time constraints for news show turnarounds are generally too tight. Some are using RED One for limited ENG applications, like shooting creative b-roll for inbumps, outbumps, promos, etc. - but that has longer turnaround times for editing. U.S. TV stations in medium to larger markets now mostly have digital post workflows (NLE), so they can easily process footage shot with RED One if it is delivered to them in a file format their editing system can edit. REDCINE and RED Alert have a lot of scaling and output options, so outputting to a drive a file format a station can edit isn't a big problem.

EFP (electronic field production) is a totally different story. RED One has been, is now, and will continue to be used widely in EFP production, specifically non-hardlined EFP and hybrid EFP/cine, and less frequently in hardlined EFP. This is long turnaround programming, with much higher production values than ENG. For my take on REDs use in EFP and ENG, check out the sticky at the top of the EFP/ENG and RED forum here on RED User.
Link: http://205.234.135.241/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10

For RED One, Epic and Scarlet, here are my current opinions - subject to change when Epic and Scarlet specifications are finalized:

RED One for ENG (electronic news gathering)?
Nope, except for limited use on creative wraps and inbumps/outbumps.

RED One for EFP (electronic field production)?
Yes, especially for non-hardlined, but also some hardlined.

Scarlet for ENG?
Maybe - we'll know when the tech specs are finalized.

Scarlet (and Epic) for EFP?
Yes, especially non-hardlined, but depending on the finalized tech specs, hardlined may be a surprise strength too - Joseph could be right when he mentioned live broadcasting as a potential use.

-------------------

Hope the above info clears up some misconceptions on using RED One, and potentially Epic and Scarlet in non-cine applications like television production. Stuart English of RED Team had a long career in the EFP/ENG equipment production industry before joining RED - with Panasonic and others. EFP production has been on the radar for Red One from the beginning, and based on just the preliminary tech specs for Epic and Scarlet (subject to change of course) IMO EFP, and perhaps some ENG applications, are squarely on RED's radar for Epic and Scarlet.

The cine capabilities of RED One are widely acknowledged - but its EFP and hybrid EFP/cine uses are less publicized - but R1 is widely used for such. Looking forward, Epic and Scarlet appear (not finalized yet) to be smaller, and more modular, flexible, and capable than RED One. Depending on the finalized tech specs, and also depending on what lenses and accessories you put on them, they may be equally usable in cine, EFP (non-hardlined and hardlined), hybrid EFP/cine, and for the DSMC models also still photography.

Once the technical specifications of Epic and Scarlet are finalized, and the initial cameras ship and can be field tested, we'll have a pretty clear picture of everything those cameras can be used for.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

To throw my .02 cents in here, R1 can be used for just about anything really. It comes down to how practical it is for that given application. To give an example. When I was beta testing a particular handheld system with the RED, I shot a wedding with R1. Now on paper, that seems ridiculous and perhaps disastrous. Now I will admit, it was very challenging and there were times when I was saying to myself, what an idiot I am for doing this but the footage looked great. I think there are ways you could probably use R1 for weddings, perhaps not as an A camera but for getting beauty shots or what not.

The point is, if a camera can be turned on and record footage it potentially can be used for just about anything. R1 is a legitimate still camera, in the sense that the images that can be pulled from it can be as beautiful as anything in that class. But would you want to be carrying it around doing mobile photography, I don't know. I think i'd rather carry a DSLR.

Epic and Scarlet will become even more versatile with their form factors. They will find their way into documentary, reality TV, etc. I think the secret to using any camera is finding out what its strengths and weaknesses are and then finding ways to make it easier to use to achieve what you want to do with it. If you love R1s image quality and want to use it in a run and gun situation you have to find the best way to strip it down to barebones without compromising that image quality.

Steve Gibby is a good example of someone who has embraced the technology, found out the best way to use it for the style of shooting he does, and he is turning out high quality material for his clients. It's not to say RED is for everyone. It probable isn't. There are some that will find better choices based on the way they like to work, and that's okay. That's why we're in a great time right now, you have endless choices.

Hardware,

No, there aren't a lot of people using RED One for ENG (electronic news gathering). Time constraints for news show turnarounds are generally too tight. Some are using RED One for limited ENG applications, like shooting creative b-roll for inbumps, outbumps, promos, etc. - but that has longer turnaround times for editing. U.S. TV stations in medium to larger markets now mostly have digital post workflows (NLE), so they can easily process footage shot with RED One if it is delivered to them in a file format their editing system can edit. REDCINE and RED Alert have a lot of scaling and output options, so outputting to a drive a file format a station can edit isn't a big problem.

EFP (electronic field production) is a totally different story. RED One has been, is now, and will continue to be used widely in EFP production, specifically non-hardlined EFP and hybrid EFP/cine, and less frequently in hardlined EFP. This is long turnaround programming, with much higher production values than ENG. For my take on REDs use in EFP and ENG, check out the sticky at the top of the EFP/ENG and RED forum here on RED User.
Link: http://205.234.135.241/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10

For RED One, Epic and Scarlet, here are my current opinions - subject to change when Epic and Scarlet specifications are finalized:

RED One for ENG (electronic news gathering)?
Nope, except for limited use on creative wraps and inbumps/outbumps.

RED One for EFP (electronic field production)?
Yes, especially for non-hardlined, but also some hardlined.

Scarlet for ENG?
Maybe - we'll know when the tech specs are finalized.

Scarlet (and Epic) for EFP?
Yes, especially non-hardlined, but depending on the finalized tech specs, hardlined may be a surprise strength too - Joseph could be right when he mentioned live broadcasting as a potential use.

-------------------

Hope the above info clears up some misconceptions on using RED One, and potentially Epic and Scarlet in non-cine applications like television production. Stuart English of RED Team had a long career in the EFP/ENG equipment production industry before joining RED - with Panasonic and others. EFP production has been on the radar for Red One from the beginning, and based on just the preliminary tech specs for Epic and Scarlet (subject to change of course) IMO EFP, and perhaps some ENG applications, are squarely on RED's radar for Epic and Scarlet.

The cine capabilities of RED One are widely acknowledged - but its EFP and hybrid EFP/cine uses are less publicized - but R1 is widely used for such. Looking forward, Epic and Scarlet appear (not finalized yet) to be smaller, and more modular, flexible, and capable than RED One. Depending on the finalized tech specs, and also depending on what lenses and accessories you put on them, they may be equally usable in cine, EFP (non-hardlined and hardlined), hybrid EFP/cine, and for the DSMC models also still photography.

Once the technical specifications of Epic and Scarlet are finalized, and the initial cameras ship and can be field tested, we'll have a pretty clear picture of everything those cameras can be used for.

 

[Mark Andersen]

One huge industry that will benefit greatly from the DSMC, is stock stills/motion shooters. We are already shooting motion stock and pulling fantastic ad agency worthy stills from the RED One right now.

I shoot a lot of Stock footage with the Red and I use both the frames and a DSLR camera for stock stills. The best reason for using an DSLR camera is I need vertical stills for print. I't pretty hard to switch in the middle of a shoot and say "lets get one more take" with the camera on it's side. The other reason is I often need a second, highly mobile, shooter doing the stills while I concentrate on footage. That being said, I do use stills off the Red when I can and they can look really good in the right situation.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I'm preparing to shoot the first of three calendars plus poster companions for the Sirens of ti, will shoot it with RPP's and the 18-85, with a mixture of Fluorescent, LED's, CDM, and Fresnel with CTB filters.

This is not the first time I do this, but it is the first time I'll get paid for , and I considered definitely to be in the category of the first of many High End jobs, followed by the Crazy Horse at the MGM, and two others which I can't mention yet.

ciao