RED's DSMC Philosophy Needs Updating - It Needs To Deliver What It Set Out To Do!

[Iain Philpott]

As a first and foremost stills guy I apologise from the outset if I possibly offend but this thread is more about producing a wake up call. Over previous years what has been promised from RED as a true DSMC concept has failed. Maybe it will change with Dragon - but at the moment - yes I can pull stills but it fails to give me a true DSMC capacity.

Does the Canon 1DC give me that capacity?

No it does not - but - and it's a big but, to the average fashion stills guy who is shooting mainstream editorial for his clients it goes a long way to supplying his client needs.
The camera on motion is shooting way and above the norm on DSLR's - but it's most certainly not Epic. But, I have to say for the majority of my clients it's looking like the footage rocks.
Shoots incredible stills (far higher than Epic can achieve) and shoots a perfectly acceptable episodic 4K image in terms of motion. It can synch on flash and shoot single frame.

I hear a rumour that Phase (on it's 645 sensor is embarking on video). The market is changing. No one, least of all the manufacturers can stand still.

I fear RED has lost the race on DSMC - we need single frame and flash synch asap. I shoot Epic on fashion/beauty ,the RO90 is a step forward but for me I need a leap?
If RED is not careful other manufacturers will come in and provide a better DSMC alternative.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

you know what everything works too slow in RED's world and you have to understand that.They put stills mode and i think its gonna be useful 2 years later.Just wait for it its all about patience.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

If RED is not careful other manufacturers will come in and provide a better DSMC alternative.

Yes, but to do that they will have to catch and exceed RED's motion capture capability. I agree that RED is not yet delivering an elegant stills capability, but their motion images are superior.

 

[Iain Philpott]

you know what everything works too slow in RED's world and you have to understand that.They put stills mode and i think its gonna be useful 2 years later.Just wait for it its all about patience.

The trouble is we are not in a technology world that has any patience for a competitor to catch up.

As a prime candidate to buy an Epic I would be mad to at the moment. As an Epic fan I'm feeling slightly frustrated at the system I've been pushing as their (based on RED's predictions) and my future's for the last two years has not advanced anywhere. All that's happened is the DSMC concept, brought about by RED, has been caught up by as a stills photographer shooting motion, by better products. I use that term carefully - stills first, motion second. The divide has narrowed. If as a stills guy flash sync is important (and it will always be) the stills side (through the 1DC) has proved to move faster and be closer to the DSMC goals, driven by RED, than RED can achieve at the present time. Come on RED - get your finger out. Announce exactly what your plans for DSMC are. If you do not have any plans to fully support DSMC then tell us and we can make decisions based on that.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Welcome to the bleeding edge. Is it really wise to stake your business plan on something you don't yet have in your hands?

 

[Iain Philpott]

Yes, but to do that they will have to catch and exceed RED's motion capture capability. I agree that RED is not yet delivering an elegant stills capability, but their motion images are superior.

But for stills guys where motion is second - with the 1DC RED have now fallen behind. I can only, so very shortly, remember when to shoot motion and take stills the only place you could be was in RED territory. The 5Dmk2 did not cut it. Failed - was out of the ballpark. It was better to take the compromise the other way, shoot RED and take the stills from it.

Now if you want great stills and perfectly acceptable 4K motion it's Canon 1DC.

RED, please step up to the plate

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

As it stands now, for motion guys who shoot occasional stills: EPIC
For stills guys who shoot occasional motion: 1DC

Will it change, definitelty yes, how soon is the question. But 1DC is not full frame 35 right? All the pro photographers I know would not be excited about shooting a cropped sensor if given the option...

 

[Stephen Mick]

1DC is a full frame camera (pretty sure it shoots S35 crop at 4K for motion, full-frame for stills or HD motion).

 

[Phil Holland]

I fear RED has lost the race on DSMC - we need single frame and flash synch asap.

Can't speak to much about flash sync. I remember it was announced that it was difficult and going through R&D. There are several of us who have done tests and work while rolling and triggering the flash manually.

However, I believe with the new firmware update on the horizon with an integrated timelapse mode it may be possible to "record one frame".

I don't know that for sure, but I have a hunch it might be possible. I have a theory that if preroll/pre-record is in there it might be easier to enable flash sync. Time will tell.


On that note, DSMC I believe is a concept that is ever evolving. We've seen Epic and Scarlet now penetrate the world of fashion performing both still and motion shoots. People are finding ways to incorporate Red cameras into their projects focusing on what the tools can do and taking them to places that motion cameras traditionally haven't really been before. Motion covers, animated billboards, print, etc....

Red right this second is clearly working on Meizler, REDRAY, Dragon, firmware improvements, and a few other hardware components. We know this because they show us this. Which other companies really don't do, not in this way.

I've enjoyed shooting panoramas and stills on my Scarlet X. I'm even considering selling off my Profoto strobes to purchase quality motion picture oriented lighting tech. That's just me though.

 

[Iain Philpott]

I'll add one further item to discuss. With the fashion industry it's all about the Emperor's New Clothes. His new clothes has been Epic but there are new clothes arriving all the time. I want RED to move into the arena of the 'capsule wardrobe'. A staple that delivers every time. Very few designers reach that peak - Ralph Lauren comes to mind.
Dragon can reach that peak. Potentially it can deliver more than a Canon (particularly with the R90). RED - we need single frame and flash sync. Please.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

1DC is a full frame camera (pretty sure it shoots S35 crop at 4K for motion, full-frame for stills or HD motion).

Interesting, didn't know this

 

[Stephen Mick]

Interesting, didn't know this

I had a chance to play around with the 1DC a few weeks back at a local shop. I'm pretty sure in motion capture you had a few options…

- 4K at Super35 Crop (24p)
- 1080HD at Full-Frame
- 1080HD at Super35 Crop

But I'm fairly certain the stills capture is full-frame.

 

[Iain Philpott]

Can't speak to much about flash sync. I remember it was announced that it was difficult and going through R&D. There are several of us who have done tests and work while rolling and triggering the flash manually.

However, I believe with the new firmware update on the horizon with an integrated timelapse mode it may be possible to "record one frame".

I don't know that for sure, but I have a hunch it might be possible. I have a theory that if preroll/pre-record is in there it might be easier to enable flash sync. Time will tell.


On that note, DSMC I believe is a concept that is ever evolving. We've seen Epic and Scarlet now penetrate the world of fashion performing both still and motion shoots. People are finding ways to incorporate Red cameras into their projects focusing on what the tools can do and taking them to places that motion cameras traditionally haven't really been before. Motion covers, animated billboards, print, etc....

Red right this second is clearly working on Meizler, REDRAY, Dragon, firmware improvements, and a few other hardware components. We know this because they show us this. Which other companies really don't do, not in this way.

I've enjoyed shooting panoramas and stills on my Scarlet X. I'm even considering selling off my Profoto strobes to purchase quality motion picture oriented lighting tech. That's just me though.

With the best will in the world, with budgets on mainstream fashion as tight as they are, flash will continue to be a cheaper option. For the foreseeable future on a stills mainstream fashion shoot, motion will take second place. If and it's a big 'if' the 1DC provides a 4K content of sufficient quality that allows some 'post camera moves' (that they did not have the time or the tech budget for) the camera of choice will be the 1DC.

As Jim is always encouraging, the goalposts continue to move. I have seen extraordinary work, and shot it, from Epic. But there are now other cameras chasing at the heels. I have the good fortune to be able to rent any camera from RED to Sony to Alexa. I love them all - it depends on the job. But as of now, having seen the footage, I'd be hard pressed to advocate (for a stills first job, motion second) an Epic, Sony or Alexa over a 1DC.

 

[Ulf Krentz]

I don´t agree on this topic. There is much more diversification like shutter speeds and lighting. You want flash sync and later do the motion work with modeling lights? A second camera is probably the smallest thing to add to the whole package you bring on set. It all depends on the specific demands of the job. Joining motion and stills is not that easy, it´s like somebody will say if you need a BW Image you can take it from the colored captures, I thing for a good BW image you also need to have the makeup and the lighting for BW, otherwise it will be a compromise. I am more than happy with what we have got from RED, YMMV.

Cheers,
Ulf

 

[Frederick von Sulle]

Interesting points, but maybe the real question is what will be more important in fashion, stills or moving images. The fashion industry is running out of money and paper as the budgets move to online devices and e-magazines. We are shooting fashion now on a daily base with EPIC X and even the old RED ONE with original sensor, using new COB 5600 LED lights. The results are getting better on a daily base. So I believe EPIC is on the right way and the flash is becoming some kind of a secondary choice due to low cost COB LED technology. Anyhow moving pictures may become more important soon as stills. Here some samples, these are our first and worst tests we shot, here you can see 6 frames taken from the video in full resolution (4K) Jpeg compressed 60%, more to come in the next days and much better quality.http://www.cast32.com/book/display/talent/B001-B001-B059.html