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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

REDray Projector..

Tim Whitcomb said:
anyone know what happened to Odemax?
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Pretty sure it's dead at this point.

Though they owe my a hard drive and delivery case if I'm not getting that back. Can't tell you how much of that goes out and never comes back.
 
So, it might be a complementary purchase.

re-edit:

Maybe costs was an issue to odemax. It costs an immense amount setting up a network. and a lot of negotiation etc, but the cost to do a big roll out includes a lot of expensive advertising and a huge stockpile of Redrays, and somebody has to manufacture a million of them, maybe 10. Nant does low power, greenarrays is the leader in low powered, with a new 32 bit intensive data version proposal lined up.
 
I can only imagine the flak Jim and Jarred got whet the RED laser projector was announced... Studios, Distributors, Movie Houses, Popcorn Growers... They must have been frightened by the prospect of the public being able to buy a projector and shoot, cut, and exhibit their movie on a screen under a tent and keep 100% of the profits. This may be the one time I think RED blinked and in doing so, let us down.
 
I have to disagree with you Elsie. For starters, based on the last 7 years, I find it hard to characterize Jim and Jarred as afraid of some flak.

More critically, even if one could buy a cinema projector from Sony/Barco/Christie for $10K, rather than $150K - you'd need to sell a lot of tickets on a consistent basis to make a profitable business out of it. In order to fill those seats you'd need advertising, movies that people were interested in seeing, a sound system, etc, etc, etc.

My assumption has been that in order to make a projector of sufficient quality to be worth the effort, that RED would have had to price it too high for their target market. Perhaps at some point the inexorable progression of technology/manufacturing will drop the cost of key components enough to change the equation, but until it does…

Cheers - #19
 
Getting lasers to work reliably and at a desired price point for projection use is obviously no simple task. RED is one of many who have announced laser projectors over the past few years and have yet to deliver. In fact, RED has shown more in their partially functional prototype than some of the other big name manufacturers have.

I don't know if or when we will ever see the projector. I have quit asking about it and have moved on to a Sony 4K for my own needs. If/ when a superior solution presents itself in the form of a RED laser projector or whatever the future brings, I'll re-evaluate my options then.... Still hoping that RED can make this happen some day.
 
Elsie N said:
I can only imagine the flak Jim and Jarred got whet the RED laser projector was announced... Studios, Distributors, Movie Houses, Popcorn Growers... They must have been frightened by the prospect of the public being able to buy a projector and shoot, cut, and exhibit their movie on a screen under a tent and keep 100% of the profits. This may be the one time I think RED blinked and in doing so, let us down.
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I have to disagree, what about the 3D by firmware upgrade, the HDR (not my favorite HDR method) the picket camera (not hiring someone either) the fixed scarlet, the price hikes. the Kaiser projector. Those are the ones I know of.

Blair, there was a guy around doing community showings, using a cheap setup. There are no theaters in a lot of places, and getting to one can take many hours, if not days. We used to have travelling picture shows. Advertising is very cheap, let them know you are coming, and there is nothing better to do. Even in centers, there is a market for non block buster films. Here the theatre is often crowded out by long runs of mainstream films at expensive prices. So there is a market for boutique cinemas showing good films at lower cost. for non block buster film makers, it gives them more of a chance yo be seen. It might be low brow, but if you have a small film not picked up by major chains, it could give you many times the audience and a step up in your career (plus offer mail out after its cinema run bluray/DVD sales at the door). Red should have aimed at this market.
 
Wayne Morellini said:
I have to disagree, what about the 3D by firmware upgrade, the HDR (not my favorite HDR method) the picket camera (not hiring someone either) the fixed scarlet, the price hikes. the Kaiser projector. Those are the ones I know of.

Blair, there was a guy around doing community showings, using a cheap setup. There are no theaters in a lot of places, and getting to one can take many hours, if not days. We used to have travelling picture shows. Advertising is very cheap, let them know you are coming, and there is nothing better to do. Even in centers, there is a market for non block buster films. Here the theatre is often crowded out by long runs of mainstream films at expensive prices. So there is a market for boutique cinemas showing good films at lower cost. for non block buster film makers, it gives them more of a chance yo be seen. It might be low brow, but if you have a small film not picked up by major chains, it could give you many times the audience and a step up in your career (plus offer mail out after its cinema run bluray/DVD sales at the door). Red should have aimed at this market.
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Wayne, I totally agree. If RED had come with the projectors (consumer and Pro models) they could have sold enough in India alone to break even. People go to see a traveling circus tent show or go to a fair, or music concert... somewhat because it is a novelty, but also a gathering place. I think a tent show large-screen movie showing would bring people out initially for the novelty but also for the opportunity to see a movie available nowhere else.

That puts the audience in exclusive company. And exhibit that on a super large 4k screen and you've got a packed tent every showing. If a circus can make money with all the animals and personnel and transportation equipment required, certainly a traveling movie theater could make more with only the tent, roustabouts, and a HDD, projector and screen to transport. And add in the actors from the movie getting paid for being in attendance and you've got something special for the audience.

Maybe combine two or more movies to keep the same people coming back. You could even stop the movie during an intermission and have members of the audience come on stage and ask the actors questions about the movie.

It could be like having a Film Festival come to your town rather than having to fight crowds with no accommodations to attend fixed-location film festivals.
 
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Weather or not RED releases a 4k / 3D / BRIGHT / wide gamut / low maintenance laser projector - I think they have given multiple kicks to the consumer and professional Laser market.

- I thought Red still had a speckle issue (caused by coherent light emission / most noticeable in red and green light). Epson get around this by using a non-coherent light source for red and green, and only using direct blue laser light)

- I thought Red had an issue with the max power output of multiple lasers (RGB). Epson got around this by only using blue laser light.

- (I believe) The Epson solution does not maintain polarity of light / and so the 3D image requires the glasses to black out L eye when the R eye is displayed (not ideal - likely brain fatigue)

- The Christie has 2 sets of RGB primaries (which is an ok compromise). Both eyes displayed at the same time. But I suspect this would limit the ability to render 2020 extremes / or restrict the power on blue laser choice (as two differing frequency powerful blue lasers would have to be sourced). REDs solution is superior here as only 1 RGB set would be used.

- With no consumer content in 4k, and no HDMI2.0 (or other) standard, no agreed wide colour gamut - releasing a Red laser PJ early would lead to a loss or a higher until cost ... and the need to add consumer connectors When they eventually got established. They probably factored in that streaming .RED over the net would sell more projectors, and give a steady influx of new orders (eg odemax).

Maybe RED should approach DOLBY in the same way that Bob Stuard did for Meridian's (miles ahead of its time) Audio Codec.
Or get .RED to be and optional part of the consumer specification the way that DTS did?

I hope that this project has remained as a 'hobby in Red - and that the time to enter the market is after the 4k / wide gamut / 120hhz / 3d standards are set in stone - with connectors that will also enable streaming from a camera, driven by a RR-X ... and still costs less than $20,000.

... maybe a Red update will sneak its way out after a 'mid-way' OLPF is released and accepted by the masses?

AJ
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
I have to disagree with you Elsie. For starters, based on the last 7 years, I find it hard to characterize Jim and Jarred as afraid of some flak.

More critically, even if one could buy a cinema projector from Sony/Barco/Christie for $10K, rather than $150K - you'd need to sell a lot of tickets on a consistent basis to make a profitable business out of it. In order to fill those seats you'd need advertising, movies that people were interested in seeing, a sound system, etc, etc, etc.

My assumption has been that in order to make a projector of sufficient quality to be worth the effort, that RED would have had to price it too high for their target market. Perhaps at some point the inexorable progression of technology/manufacturing will drop the cost of key components enough to change the equation, but until it does…

Cheers - #19
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That's true, and I probably shouldn't make the statement I did based on being unable to think of any another explanation. I'm guilty of some of the same conjecture I've railed against at times.

Still, it would be nice to know if they've abandoned the idea of an affordable 4k laser projector. I understand keeping the roadmap under wraps, but this was announced so an occasional update on progress or bumps in the road would be appropriate, I think.
 
It's not just India, but Africa where there's a huge amount of piracy combined with no conversion to digital delivery of films. Oh, and what we're doing up here in Canada with Bandwidth...we're talking about 633 First Nations and 550 tribes in the US. Our federal Heritage Minister attended one of our events and said she thought there should be movie theatres like ours in every community...with 50% of the hardware costs covered by the federal government. So, opportunity? Uh, yeah I think so.

I've repeatedly asked Jarred and Red about Red Projector only to be told...nothing. Not even EOL...but we're not waiting. We can't. We're talking about saving lives by giving hope to our young people, and changing the lives for a whole new generation of our people who might realize there's a place for them in the world of feature film. We're also bringing entertainment for the family unit -that is, quality time together among generations- which cannot be underestimated.

BTW Barco makes a very fine machine and it's affordable as a package when you factor in server, lens and projector. 2K is $37,000 CDN. 4K is $65,000. It's not out of reach. We've been working with them in the absence of Red from the conversation.
 
Elsie N said:
Wayne, I totally agree. If RED had come with the projectors (consumer and Pro models) they could have sold enough in India alone to break even. People go to see a traveling circus tent show or go to a fair, or music concert... somewhat because it is a novelty, but also a gathering place. I think a tent show large-screen movie showing would bring people out initially for the novelty but also for the opportunity to see a movie available nowhere else.

That puts the audience in exclusive company. And exhibit that on a super large 4k screen and you've got a packed tent every showing. If a circus can make money with all the animals and personnel and transportation equipment required, certainly a traveling movie theater could make more with only the tent, roustabouts, and a HDD, projector and screen to transport. And add in the actors from the movie getting paid for being in attendance and you've got something special for the audience.

Maybe combine two or more movies to keep the same people coming back. You could even stop the movie during an intermission and have members of the audience come on stage and ask the actors questions about the movie.

It could be like having a Film Festival come to your town rather than having to fight crowds with no accommodations to attend fixed-location film festivals.
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Elsie...we are already doing this with Bandwidth.
 
Clearly the availability of moderate cost high performance digital projectors would bring applications such as those mentioned onto the reach of many more people. I recently purchased a Sony VPL VW600ES in part for such use cases. Although it's not powerful enough for large venues, it can be pretty sweet in smaller spaces. I would agree that a unit with at least 5,000 lumens, decent optics and internal server block for under $20K would find a market, just not sure how large that market would be. If you could get a legitimate theatrical long throw 4K 12,000 lumen+ unit on the market for $30K I think they'd sell very well, but I'm dubious that the projector manufacturers are interested in a price war that would cut their margins to the bone.

IAC, if RED does pick up the ball on the projector front when they can source the key pieces at a reasonable cost I'd be very interested. Until then…

Cheers - #19
 
Jeremy Torrie said:
Elsie...we are already doing this with Bandwidth.
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Jeremy, I salute your foresight.

Still, those units are going to be limited in numbers, IMO, due to cost.

The thing that made the RED projector so attractive was the .RED encode.

But for those who can, well, the future is now.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Clearly the availability of moderate cost high performance digital projectors would bring applications such as those mentioned onto the reach of many more people. I recently purchased a Sony VPL VW600ES in part for such use cases. Although it's not powerful enough for large venues, it can be pretty sweet in smaller spaces. I would agree that a unit with at least 5,000 lumens, decent optics and internal server block for under $20K would find a market, just not sure how large that market would be. If you could get a legitimate theatrical long throw 4K 12,000 lumen+ unit on the market for $30K I think they'd sell very well, but I'm dubious that the projector manufacturers are interested in a price war that would cut their margins to the bone.

IAC, if RED does pick up the ball on the projector front when they can source the key pieces at a reasonable cost I'd be very interested. Until then…

Cheers - #19
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The thing that really pisses me off is that, obnoxious as he was, Mark Halfich appears to have been right. '-(
 
Managing costs is especially important. Mobilizing a crew, paying per diem, hotel, and gas -especially at astronomical prices here in Canada- are some of the very real costs on the ground. The sound system is not cheap, unless you want people to get a just okay cinema experience. The screen itself was $9,000, but looks incredible (see our Barco link for an image) with a decent projector with at least 10,000 lumens.

I am really surprised by how good some of the 2K DCP's can look even 100 feet back from the screen near the projector. Very clear with a lot of detail...of course I love 4K even better but for the majority, most don't know (or care) about the resolution bump. All they care about is the overall experience...although there's not much I can say when something like Sin City is horribly executed.

Equally important (and something we have done) is one has to make all manner of relationships with the distributors in order to get them to release DCP's to you, and they may not if they think you're going to steal a permanent exhibitor's box office.

I have always said I wanted RedRay to succeed but pretty sure it's dead...just as Red got out of the lens business. My guess is they've decided internally to focus on what they do best, and do it well. They're definitely pushing the resolution bus (some may say driving it), but if you cannot SHOW people what it actually looks like, it's hard to convert the masses. 4K DCP's do exist, and the Gone Girl Trailer in 4K was amazing, but it's mainly for those who can afford to make the investment now...would love to see more, but yes Red could have really kicked 4K exhibition into high gear had they decided to get the projector into filmmakers' hands.
 
Jeremy Torrie said:
Managing costs is especially important. Mobilizing a crew, paying per diem, hotel, and gas -especially at astronomical prices here in Canada- are some of the very real costs on the ground. The sound system is not cheap, unless you want people to get a just okay cinema experience. The screen itself was $9,000, but looks incredible (see our Barco link for an image) with a decent projector with at least 10,000 lumens.

I am really surprised by how good some of the 2K DCP's can look even 100 feet back from the screen near the projector. Very clear with a lot of detail...of course I love 4K even better but for the majority, most don't know (or care) about the resolution bump. All they care about is the overall experience...although there's not much I can say when something like Sin City is horribly executed.

Equally important (and something we have done) is one has to make all manner of relationships with the distributors in order to get them to release DCP's to you, and they may not if they think you're going to steal a permanent exhibitor's box office.

I have always said I wanted RedRay to succeed but pretty sure it's dead...just as Red got out of the lens business. My guess is they've decided internally to focus on what they do best, and do it well. They're definitely pushing the resolution bus (some may say driving it), but if you cannot SHOW people what it actually looks like, it's hard to convert the masses. 4K DCP's do exist, and the Gone Girl Trailer in 4K was amazing, but it's mainly for those who can afford to make the investment now...would love to see more, but yes Red could have really kicked 4K exhibition into high gear had they decided to get the projector into filmmakers' hands.
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Your organization is the first one I've heard of that has put this plan in motion. Years ago there was a gentleman from India (can't remember his name) who was interested in doing something similar but he hasn't posted in a long time, not to mention the fact there was no affordable way to exhibit that I'm aware of, at that time.

I think that what you are doing is just the beginning of the "next big thing" in exhibition. Digital cameras (RED in particular) democratized acquisition... an inexpensive laser projector would complete the circle and democratize exhibition.

When Jim quit posting he said he was tired. I hope he soon becomes re-charged and gets all Mavericky again.

I fear RED settling and becoming Apple-like.
 
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