RedMags or Third Party 1.8" SSD

[Chris Gavrilovic]

Do you have to use the RedMags or will a 1.8" SSD from OCZ work as well?

Thank you

 

[Curran Giddens]

Only the ones from Red will work.

 

[Chris Gavrilovic]

Only the ones from Red will work.

Is there a reason for this? Format issues? Or does the camera know when you're not using a RedMag and won't record to it? In other words, what prevents you from using non-RedMags

 

[D Fuller]

Is there a reason for this? Format issues? Or does the camera know when you're not using a RedMag and won't record to it? In other words, what prevents you from using non-RedMags

The most direct reason is that the connector is different. The Redmags use a proprietary connector that can stand up to hundreds of insertions. Conventional SATA connections are designed to be connected once and left there. They break down with frequent insertions.

The other reason is that the data rates Red requires for the cameras to function properly are constant, and very high. Most drives are rated for burst speeds that they can't sustain for, say, a 20-minute take. For Red cameras to be considered reliable, the media has to be able to take whatever is thrown at it all day long. Most SSDs are simply not able to sustain the data rates required. They need to stop and re-calibrate themselves occasionally, and if they do that, you get a blown shot.

 

[Jon Carr]

Its a RED thing, only RED media works on a RED camera. They do this to prevent media failure, it's a good thing too.

 

[Brent J. Craig]

You can buy inexpensive SSDs that have sustained read/write speeds over 300MB/s. Even if the connectors only last for 500 cycles instead of 10000, they are also 20x cheaper, readily available and do not require special readers to offload. Red has made the use of these impossible by using a proprietary connector.

I think Red has realized that the profit in the camera business comes from the accessories, which is fine, but being given the choice to use standard media would be nice.

 

[Erich Roland]

Reliability is a huge issue, and Red can control the users experience and outcome with they're own media products with they're own quality control because the speed/write demand on the media is very high, higher then consumer needs. I learned this lesson the hard way on a Panasonic af100 which uses high speed SD cards. Panasonic recommends the cards they sell but they cost more, like almost double even name brand versions with the same write speeds.

I thought id try the best brand name that's maybe 40% cheaper and with the same data rates required. Sure enough eventually we end up with recording problem/hitch, I contact Panasonic thinking I have a hardware/camera issue, and the very first question is "what brand media are you using". of coarse there is nothing I can say or do but buy the expensive Panasonic media and see what happens, and we've never had a problem since.

You have to ask which shots are you willing to sacrifice to save some money on media? because you may very well loose some portion of a shoot eventually if you don't use the media the manufacturer has done its own speed tests and quality control on. Then you end up buying it eventually anyway.

 

[Brook Willard]

You can buy inexpensive SSDs that have sustained read/write speeds over 300MB/s. Even if the connectors only last for 500 cycles instead of 10000, they are also 20x cheaper, readily available and do not require special readers to offload. Red has made the use of these impossible by using a proprietary connector.

I think Red has realized that the profit in the camera business comes from the accessories, which is fine, but being given the choice to use standard media would be nice.

I used to think this was true until I saw the testing that RED puts their media through. You wouldn't believe how much media just isn't up to snuff. Trust me, it isn't a ploy for RED to make money... it's the real deal. I back them 100% on the pricing.

You'll also note that RED media costs less than SxS cards [dollars:gigs].

 

[Jason Diamond]

I used to think this was true until I saw the testing that RED puts their media through. You wouldn't believe how much media just isn't up to snuff. Trust me, it isn't a ploy for RED to make money... it's the real deal. I back them 100% on the pricing.

You'll also note that RED media costs less than SxS cards [dollars:gigs].

I agree 100%. Media is the one place you do not want to skimp. It is your negative and the only copy of your content during acquisition. Not a good place to save a few bucks.

Jason

 

[Bruce Allen]

I used to think this was true until I saw the testing that RED puts their media through. You wouldn't believe how much media just isn't up to snuff. Trust me, it isn't a ploy for RED to make money... it's the real deal. I back them 100% on the pricing.

I also completely understand RED's position.

However... I hope they likewise understand if I rent instead of buy their camera though because I just can't afford the media!

For Scarlet, all that's needed is 55MB/sec sustained. I was expecting RED to do something like Sony, EG two tiers:

Sony SRMedia 256gb S55 with 700MB/sec sustained write speed is $4300.
Sony SRMedia 256gb S15 with 192MB/sec sustained write speed is $1600.

Instead, RED has one $3200 tier. I have no problem with one tier (economies of scale)... except there is currently not enough economy for me, sadly!

Will re-evaluate whether to buy or not in a year's time - see what the Dragon upgrade brings, and if SSD prices go down. Also, if I'm not doing 400+ hours of overtime in my day job I think I could make Scarlet work with a small amount of storage if I were just shooting my own stuff. But if I've got a ton of paying post work in (which seems to be the case currently), I'd be too busy to shoot and would have to rent out the Scarlet for it to make sense. Then I'd need a stack of cards... which is just out of the budget.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Erich Ocean]

I also completely understand RED's position.

However... I hope they likewise understand if I rent instead of buy their camera though because I just can't afford the media!

For Scarlet, all that's needed is 55MB/sec sustained. I was expecting RED to do something like Sony, EG two tiers:

Sony SRMedia 256gb S55 with 700MB/sec sustained write speed is $4300.
Sony SRMedia 256gb S15 with 192MB/sec sustained write speed is $1600.

Instead, RED has one $3200 tier. I have no problem with one tier (economies of scale)... except there is currently not enough economy for me, sadly!

Will re-evaluate whether to buy or not in a year's time - see what the Dragon upgrade brings, and if SSD prices go down. Also, if I'm not doing 400+ hours of overtime in my day job I think I could make Scarlet work with a small amount of storage if I were just shooting my own stuff. But if I've got a ton of paying post work in (which seems to be the case currently), I'd be too busy to shoot and would have to rent out the Scarlet for it to make sense. Then I'd need a stack of cards... which is just out of the budget.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Not to mention that the Scarlet-X only has a data rate of 55MB/sec. It ain't no Epic, but the media is all Epic-rated, so it's WAY overkill.

 

[Scott Miller]

Price P2 media then get back to us. 64Gb is over $600 last time I checked.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I used to think this was true until I saw the testing that RED puts their media through. You wouldn't believe how much media just isn't up to snuff. Trust me, it isn't a ploy for RED to make money... it's the real deal. I back them 100% on the pricing.

I never doubted them. I've done plenty of my own media testing for other purposes. The problem is few component vendors are truthful about numbers and specs. When it comes time to quote speeds for SSD's, most manufacturers quote burst rates under ideal conditions for transferring compressed data.

You'll also note that RED media costs less than SxS cards [dollars:gigs].

Exactly. Per GB, the RED SSD's are the best deal going in professional recording media and they're pretty much the highest performing media out there.

I understand that people want it cheaper. But I'm totally on RED's side here in terms of reliability. This stuff just has to work. period. And I don't want the option of slower media at what would probably be only a slightly reduced cost. RED would have to paint them bright red or some other color and then no decent EPIC jobs or rentals would want "those slow cards" anyway.

Best we can hope for is that technology will continue to improve and people will continue to buy cameras and media. The prices should fall. It won't happen over night, but it will happen. I know it's a tough pill to swallow up front, but the 256GB SSD 4-pack is a pretty good deal for what it is. Makes P2 and SxS media prices look criminal.

...Makes me wonder just what people are expecting here. Seems there's a whole renewed discussion on SSD pricing since the Scarlet announcement and we now have Scarlet customers looking at this media. Did these new Scarlet customers not have a camera before? OTOH, a great many of them are probably DSLR shooters and they're probably having sticker shock and specifications nightmares coming over from shooting DSLR video. RED SSD media is 8~10X the price of common CF and SDHC media and the data rates from Scarlet are 8~10X greater than most DSLR systems.

 

[Bruce Allen]

RED is totally entitled to keep prices where they are. I am not requesting they do anything. I am just pointing out a major factor in me deciding to rent and not buy Scarlet - media and accessory prices.

Exactly. Per GB, the RED SSD's are the best deal going in professional recording media and they're pretty much the highest performing media out there.

True, but Sony SRMedia 256gb with 192MB/sec sustained write speed is supposed to be about to release for $1600? Versus RED 256gb SSD at $3200. Maybe the prices I'm getting are wrong, but...

Best we can hope for is that technology will continue to improve and people will continue to buy cameras and media. The prices should fall. It won't happen over night, but it will happen. I know it's a tough pill to swallow up front, but the 256GB SSD 4-pack is a pretty good deal for what it is. Makes P2 and SxS media prices look criminal.

Thing is... P2 and SxS prices went down over their lifetime from "very high" to "still kinda high". It's only when the company starts a new line (eg Sony's SRMedia) that Moore's law seems to get taken into account!

Same with RED's hard drive media, CF media, etc. So if history repeats itself... Epic and Scarlet will have very expensive storage for a very long time and we have to wait for whatever next-gen storage comes after the Epic?

Again, don't want next-gen storage. Just want cheaper storage.

I understand that people want it cheaper. But I'm totally on RED's side here in terms of reliability. This stuff just has to work. period. And I don't want the option of slower media at what would probably be only a slightly reduced cost. RED would have to paint them bright red or some other color and then no decent EPIC jobs or rentals would want "those slow cards" anyway.

That's a valid perspective. But Sony didn't think agree. And yes, their cards do have different colors based on their speed tier!

Price P2 media then get back to us. 64Gb is over $600 last time I checked.

I never bought an HVX200 or a single P2 card for that reason - P2 cards always added too much to the system cost. Because of this, I never bought an HVX200 - just rented a Varicam when needed.

Again, price Sony's upcoming SRMemory cards - 256Gb for approx $1600 with 192MB/sec sustained write speed. Or 1TB with 320MB/sec for approx $6300?

Not to mention that the Scarlet-X only has a data rate of 55MB/sec. It ain't no Epic, but the media is all Epic-rated, so it's WAY overkill.

Well, I did mention it

RED is totally entitled to keep prices where they are. I am not requesting they do anything. I am just pointing out a major factor in me deciding to rent and not buy Scarlet - media and accessory prices.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

True, but Sony SRMedia 256gb with 192MB/sec sustained write speed is supposed to be about to release for $1600? Versus RED 256gb SSD at $3200. Maybe the prices I'm getting are wrong, but...

I'll believe it when I see it. I don't believe Sony has officially announced any pricing just yet. And even if their media does come out cheaper, they're more than compensating for it in other areas.

Thing is... P2 and SxS prices went down over their lifetime from "very high" to "still kinda high". It's only when the company starts a new line (eg Sony's SRMedia) that Moore's law seems to get taken into account!

RED media has come down in price too. There were two price reductions on the 16GB CF cards, three if you consider the last 4-pack discount. RED Drive prices stayed the same, but capacity doubled half-way through their lifespan. The REDMAG SSD's haven't been available long enough to really push for a price adjustment. Then again, we now have the 4-pack discounts on the 64 and 256GB media. As for Moore's Law, it doesn't exist. Nothing more than marketing fluff. In fact, Intel spent much of an entire decade trying to pretend it didn't exist. These days, people relate it to most anything technical, usually to say that stuff should drop in price every 12 to 18 months or become twice as fast or store twice as much data in that period of time. The only constant about Moore's Law is that people continuously re-write it to mean what they want and then it gets quoted. Sorry, it's a real peeve of mine. It belongs right up there with the two other most hated terms of mine, actually Moore's Law is #1 on my shit-list. The other two I speak of are "game changer" and "quantum leap". If anyone ever catches me actually saying or typing "game changer", they have my permission to kick me square in the balls. ...Even Intel is guilty of re-writing Moore's Law to fit their marketing. It's such bullshit. As Moore originally made his proposal (that's what it was, not a "law"), he stated that IC makers (primarily Intel, his employer) would do well to double the amount of transistors within a microprocessor approximately every 18 months. Intel stuck to that business model for many years, until it no longer worked. Then they threw Moore's proposal, which had become a principle and then later a "law" or operations gospel, right out the window. Anyway, it's back now. Has been for about 8 to 10 years it seems... More as an internet forum meme than anything else and Intel marketing buzzword. Has absolutely nothing to do with current microprocessor design, hard drives or flash memory, yet people think it does... Anyway... </rant>

Just want cheaper storage.

Doesn't everyone?

That's a valid perspective. But Sony didn't think agree. And yes, their cards do have different colors based on their speed tier!

Yeah, and you have to buy more cards in the end to supply different camera models. From a small owner/op or boutique perspective, this can be cheaper if you only have a couple cameras to support. In a rental house or larger studio situation this has got to be a nightmare. You end up buying more media than you ultimately need because one camera needs one class, another needs a higher class, etc..

I never bought an HVX200 or a single P2 card for that reason - P2 cards always added too much to the system cost. Because of this, I never bought an HVX200 - just rented a Varicam when needed.

I always just looked at the P2 media the same way I look at RED SSD media. It's a cost of the camera package or camera system you want to build. I paid like $5500 for my first HVX200, but spent almost $5K on the 4 x P2 cards I had to go with it. Sad thing was, that was two 4GB and two 8GB cards for that price. I had to have the two 8GB cards shipped to me from Japan because every authorized Panny dealer in the states couldn't get them for me for some F'd up reason. They claimed they were too much in demand. Whatever, I think it had to do with timing the US dollar and whatnot. Plentiful in Japan right after their launch and I had no trouble getting them shipped to me, for about $180 less per card (after shipping) than what the US MSRP was supposed to be. Stupid crazy antics like that. Yeah, I never was a fan of P2. Shot a lot of Varicam myself, almost bought one. But the whole P2 thing and several other things Panasonic did throughout '05 thru '08 pretty much turned me off of buying any of their products again. ever.

Again, price Sony's upcoming SRMemory cards - 256Gb for approx $1600 with 192MB/sec sustained write speed. Or 1TB with 320MB/sec for approx $6300?

We'll see... I'm still skeptical. Even if they have announced those prices. Anyway, if they do hold those specs and prices, then that would be great. Maybe it would motivate RED to consider an adjustment.

 

[Nick Wernham]

Not to mention that the Scarlet-X only has a data rate of 55MB/sec. It ain't no Epic, but the media is all Epic-rated, so it's WAY overkill.

This is a fair comment, but it's worth noting that the whole DSMC system is geared towards upgradeability and expandability. Red seems to want the upgrade from Scarlet to Epic to be as painless as possible. You buy a new brain and that's it, basically. I guess the trade-off is that in some ways the initial point of entry is more painful than it has to be.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

This is a fair comment, but it's worth noting that the whole DSMC system is geared towards upgradeability and expandability. Red seems to want the upgrade from Scarlet to Epic to be as painless as possible. You buy a new brain and that's it, basically. I guess the trade-off is that in some ways the initial point of entry is more painful than it has to be.

I have no problem seeing how all the juicy red-drives could have had a new life with Scarlet...

Hm
That was an idea...

But I feel 1000 times safer with the SSDs...

 

[Kyle Gentz]

I agree 100%. Media is the one place you do not want to skimp. It is your negative and the only copy of your content during acquisition. Not a good place to save a few bucks.

Jason

I agree the last thing you should skimp on is media, Have you ever had a file/card go bad on you? I have on my 7D, and I plan on never having that happen again. I never used cheap cards again, have yet to have an issue. There is some peace of mind when buying the right tool for the right application. And you know your tool has been tested.

 

[Kyle Gentz]

This is a fair comment, but it's worth noting that the whole DSMC system is geared towards upgradeability and expandability. Red seems to want the upgrade from Scarlet to Epic to be as painless as possible. You buy a new brain and that's it, basically. I guess the trade-off is that in some ways the initial point of entry is more painful than it has to be.

This is the most exciting part of the Scarlet-X to me.

 

[Bruce Allen]

I would like to revive this thread now that ProVideoCoalition and B&H has confirmed Sony's SRMemory prices.

I originally said 1TB would be approx $6300.

Actually - it's 1TB for $5700 for a 320MB/sec SSD (can write full 18 megapixel 3.2:1 compressed RAW files at 24fps):
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/831332-REG/Sony_SR_1TS25_SR_1TS25_SRMemory_Card_1TB_.html

This is a hell of a lot cheaper than RED's price on 1TB of SSD media - $9950 for a 256GB 4-pack.

Or you can get 512MB for $5700 for a 700MB/sec SSD (can write full 18 megapixel 3.2:1 compressed RAW files at 60fps).
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=sony+s55+srmemory&N=0&InitialSearch=yes

They will also have cheaper cards that "only" guarantee a 192MB/sec write. EG:

Only $1400 for a 256GB SSD:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/831330-REG/Sony_SR_256S15_SR_256S15_SRMemory_Card_256GB_.html

That's less than half the cost of RED's SSD media - $3200 for a 256GB SSD?! (which you have to buy for Scarlet).

Boy, I wish I could use Sony media on a Scarlet.

I don't know though... would it be able to handle Scarlet's terrifying 55MB/sec max write? It says 192MB/sec guaranteed write speed but I'm scared! Surely 55MB/sec is an incredibly difficult thing to do?! For that matter... how does Blackmagic manage a sustained write of 150MB/sec via HyperDeck and consumer SSDs? I'm terrified! Oh noes?!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com